Navigating Grief During the Holidays

Mac: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. So for today, we put together a bonus episode. Last year, right around this time, we did an episode on the topic of boundaries with a member of our congregation, terry Koschnik. Terry is a licensed therapist who has been providing counseling for over 30 years, so she's got creds, as the kids would say these days. We had so much fun doing that episode that we've been looking for an excuse to have her back ever since, and that moment has now come.

‍Mac: 0:42

As a pastor, I've noticed that, while the holidays are supposed to be a time of joy and celebration, a time of great excitement for many people, they experience the exact opposite. Instead of an increase in joy and celebration, they experience an increase in grief and sadness. For lots of people, the holidays can be a particularly challenging season, so we want to create some space to talk about why that is and how to navigate it. How do we navigate grief during the holiday season? That's the question, and we've invited Terry to join us as a mental health professional who has extensive experience helping people do this very thing experience helping people do this very thing. So our hope and prayer is that this episode would be helpful and instructive for you. Whatever burdens you might be carrying with you into this holiday season, let's get into it.

Katie: 1:48

Hey everyone, my name is Katie.

Mac: 1:50

And I'm Mac.

Katie: 1:51

Welcome to Praxis. We're sitting here today with a special guest by the name of Terry Koschnik, who you may or may not know is my mom.

Mac: 2:03

I'm sitting, I feel like it's an Italian sandwich. You're both Italian? Yes, we are, and I'm stuck between you two. I was trying to think of something quirky to say, but nothing came.

Katie: 2:12

Okay, so this is the second time that we've had her on the podcast to talk about a mental health related topic, so that's fun. If you spend much time around Crosspoint, you've likely heard her speak either from the stage or in a mental health workshop or leading a Bible study. She's been here for many years and led many things right, yep. Just recently she was part of a panel for a sermon dealing on anger in the way of Jesus, how to, kind of like reckon with our anger and forgiveness in the way of Jesus. But you may also know she's been a licensed marriage and family therapist for about 30 years. Is that right, yep 30?

Terri: 2:53

years, yeah, 30 years.

Katie: 2:56

And she's helped tons of people in that role. Tons and tons of people. I hear stories all the time, just kind of living in town here, from people who will just come up to me at the grocery store or whatever and say is your mom Terry? And then they usually tell me oh, you look so much like her. And then the second thing is always your mom has changed my life. Like no joke. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard that.

Katie: 3:15

That's nice yeah. So she has a lot of wisdom, and I love these conversations because I think they really help us integrate our faith with a very important topic of mental health, which is something that affects all of us on a regular basis.

Mac: 3:30

I have a question for you too. Let's have a little fun. Okay, here's my question what is a funny memory that you two share together that still makes you giggle when you think about it?

Terri: 3:44

Oh, that's a funny thing At the holidays or anytime, anytime.

Katie: 3:49

I'm bad at thinking on the spot.

Mac: 3:52

Well, you just shared one involving a popsicle.

Katie: 3:55

Oh yeah.

Mac: 3:56

And you were laughing hysterically as you told it.

Terri: 3:59

Okay, I think I was kind of a funny mom, wasn't I? Because I did kind of silly stuff all the time. What do you remember? I was a little more out there.

Katie: 4:08

You kept life interesting, I think I did, she had okay, well, on the popsicle. On the popsicle topic, my mom had an addiction to popsicles, and it was not just any popsicles, it was Blue Bunny it was.

Terri: 4:21

Blue Bunny Something, something.

Katie: 4:26

It was a very specific kind and she had popsicle pajamas that she wore.

Mac: 4:28

Oh wow, this was a real thing when you said, addiction like that's what led to her career in mental health.

Katie: 4:33

And if you know the police station downtown Oconomowoc, you guys know where the police station is. Well, that wasn't always a police station. That used to be a century, and for a while it was Super Saver, super Saver, yeah. And so my mom would shop there when I was a kid and go there every week and she always got her popsicles, except one day her popsicles were not in stock anymore, and if you know my mom, she's tends to be quite assertive, really. So she found the man in charge of stocking the fridges.

Terri: 5:04

It would be the refrigerator manager, the refrigerator manager.

Katie: 5:07

So she finds the refrigerator manager and tells him we have a problem. This is the only reason I come here, which I don't know. If that's actually true, it was true, okay. I eat these blueberry popsicles and yes, you have other popsicles, I see that, but I need this kind and they're not here. So what's happening? Like for listen-free? And he responds simply well, yeah, we don't order those anymore, like we don't, just something that they-.

Katie: 5:34

They're gone. We don't carry those. Yeah, but that was not a sufficient answer, and so by the end of that conversation he agreed to special order them and keep them in the back for you.

Terri: 5:45

He special ordered them for two years. For me, two years, that's amazing, and I was very happy Every time we went grocery shopping.

Katie: 5:51

We would have to take a special trip to the back freezer and find our friend.

Terri: 5:55

I was very appreciative. Yes, I did like my popsicles.

Mac: 5:59

So, you not only had a popsicle addiction, but you also appear to be a pretty good negotiator.

Terri: 6:06

Yes, I would say that's a very good compliment, and I think, katie, I'm surprised you remember that. Do you remember me having that big talk in the refrigerator aisle that I need my popsicles? Yeah, I latch onto certain things, don't I?

Katie: 6:23

But it always works out.

Terri: 6:24

It does work out nicely. It's a good memory.

Mac: 6:27

Well, speaking of popsicles, we're going to do a bonus episode today on the topic of navigating grief during the holidays, and it really starts with this observation, and I know all three of us have noticed this While the holidays are supposed to be a season of joy and celebration, a time of great excitement, many people don't experience it that way. They experience the opposite it's a time of sadness and disappointment and pain. And so it seems to us that grief actually gets amplified during the holidays. For many people, During the holidays, grief is exacerbated and felt in a heightened and intensified way. And maybe I should just give a definition of grief.

Mac: 7:10

When I say grief, I'm referring to a normal response to the experience of loss. So grief is a normal response to the experience of loss. Grief comes with the experience of any kind of loss We'll get into this more but it's prompted by loss. It's normal. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. I often say that grief is the price we pay for love. It's just an indication that we've loved something and now that is no longer there. None of us like grief. Grief is always accompanied by pain and, unless you're a masochist, most of us prefer to avoid pain. And yet and this is why we're doing this episode grief is a necessary part of the healing process. So, even though grief is painful and uncomfortable, the solution isn't to avoid it. It's to face it and engage it in productive ways. So I really mean this.

Mac: 7:59

We've been praying over this podcast. Our hope and prayer today is that this conversation would help you do that. We hope not only to acknowledge and normalize this reality of grief during the holidays, but also help you navigate it in a way that contributes to your healing. So let's kind of get into it. Let's just start with why is this? Why is it that this time of the year, as we approach Thanksgiving and the month of December and Christmas and New Year's, why is it that during the holidays, we tend to experience more grief and pain rather than less? Why is it that grief is amplified during this time of the?

Katie: 8:39

Yeah, I think one reason I would maybe name by saying that any loss can be felt during the holidays, and what I mean by that is this I think this season can be all about joy.

Katie: 8:57

Right, we talk a lot about joy, we sing about joy, we come together with family and friends, we celebrate, we eat lots of cookies, so we expect to experience joy at Christmas, but then I think that what that means is that anything that gets in the way of feeling that way becomes exposed.

Katie: 9:15

So when this happens, we discover that there's almost like a gap between what I should be experiencing and what I am experiencing. I should be experiencing joy and what I am experiencing. I should be experiencing joy, but I'm not able to, and the reason for my inability to experience that joy could be any number of things. Most common one, I think, that comes to mind for me is death of a loved one. Right, when I think about why people grieve around the holidays, it's commonly because they've lost someone. A couple of years ago, in 2020, we lost my grandpa, my mom's dad, and celebrating Christmas was a big part of our life with him, and so his absence felt the loudest when we were doing all of the things that we had done in previous years, in the same way as we had done them, only this time he wasn't there.

Mac: 10:01

Yeah, he normally would have been involved in those very things and you have memories connected to previous years and now that absence is felt.

Katie: 10:08

Yes, Yep, yep. So I think that's a really common reason for feeling grief this time of year. But then another reason could be the loss of someone, not through death but through, maybe like the end of a relationship, maybe divorce or some other type of relational fallout. I think this can lead to a similar type of grief as losing someone through death. We also might be feeling grief about life changes. Maybe kids have left home or recently gotten married and so they aren't present in the same way that they used to be. In previous years you might be struggling with, like, say, infertility or a miscarriage. Maybe you thought you'd have a child by this time of year and even had plans for what Christmas would look like with a new baby. And here you are in. That dream didn't pan out. I know many people who have been there and are there now.

Mac: 10:52

A. Strange relationships come to mind, because there's like a togetherness sort of at the holidays You're with your family. If you're estranged from your family, that can be felt really acutely. Oh yeah, Yep, yep.

Katie: 11:05

Loss of a job, right, let's think of a career change. Maybe you have to move to a new place where you don't really have your bearings at. You don't have your people.

Mac: 11:12

Doesn't feel like home.

Katie: 11:13

Doesn't feel like home. Yep, you could be grieving loss of health. Maybe you recently received news of a diagnosis or some kind of medical setback and you're wondering what does this mean? So lots and lots of reasons. I think we could be feeling grief around the holidays. Any kind of loss or change could keep us from feeling the way that we think we should feel.

Mac: 11:32

So maybe to summarize what I've heard you contribute is grief is broader than the loss of a loved one. It can be connected to lots of things. So there's just plenty of opportunity to feel loss, and it's in this season that's. There's this expectation of joy, and so anything that's blocking that gets exposed during the season.

Terri: 11:55

That's good. Another reason is Can I say one more thing?

Mac: 12:00

before we jump ahead is I've noticed a weird phenomena. I would say I've done the most amount of funerals in December and I also think that it can be a particularly challenging season. If that loss occurred during this season and I'm no stranger to this this happened on my side of the family. My mom's dad died on Christmas.

Mac: 12:28

Day at 51 years of age Now. He hadn't taken care of himself. He was an alcoholic for a big part of his life. It was in the day and age where people smoked a lot, so he had a lot of things that were just working against him. But he came to faith in Jesus, got sober, rededicated. His life was doing some amazing things and, yeah, 51 years old, christmas day celebrated with the family, started not to feel great, went to lay down and that was it and I was too young to remember. But obviously that's pretty disruptive and I still notice that on Christmas day there's a horrible memory attached for people in my family. That's just difficult Years later. So this was not in close proximity, but I was very close to my grandma on my dad's side and she ended up dying on the 26th of December and we saw it coming Like she was in her nineties. She lived an amazing life and health was gradually declining, but again right at that, like kind of when families together.

Terri: 13:31

You know what I mean Absolutely, and because I do know your lovely mother, I've talked to her about this that Christmas was really hard for her for a long time and it still kind of is. I mean, there's that memory of her father and there's this sense of grief that can come up on her at any time during this holiday. It's been really hard for your mom and I think that would be one of the hardest things. So thank you for naming that. I think of Katie, your dad's mom, Cece, losing her mother around Christmas. So I know Christmas is a really sentimental time for Grandma Cece, who lost her mother around Christmas time. So that's a really good point, Mac, that you bring up.

Mac: 14:17

I was talking to a woman in our congregation recently, just this past Sunday, and she lost her son unexpectedly last year around this time and I did the funeral for her and her daughter or her granddaughter, and I had a check-in with her. Hey, the holidays are coming up. I know this is going to be hard, and she said the anniversary of his death falls on the 27th of November, which is the day before Thanksgiving. I'm really feeling that, and the following year so not this year, but the next year we're dreading it because it falls on Thanksgiving itself. So I just think this is normal. It's normal to feel an extra degree of sadness and loss at the holidays, especially when it falls on these days where, like, death shouldn't be part of these moments.

Terri: 15:09

That's right. That's right. That's a really good point. And I think the next reason grief is unpredictable what you're talking about, mac and Katie is it can come up on you at any minute. That you don't recognize when that grief can emerge. And if I could just even define grief in the sense of it feels like a vague term to me, but if we look at grief, I think of the different stages where we can have, when we lose someone or have a loss. It's shock, it's denial, it's bargaining, it's depression, but it's also anger.

Terri: 15:56

So we need to name what grief is, because people can be really angry it can look very different it can look different and anger can be a very big part of grief, Recognizing there is no one way, a right way or predictable way to express grief, so give yourself permission to express grief in the emotion that it is. So I have my client's journal Journal is powerful because it calms down the amygdala, but it also causes the right and left hemisphere of the brain to talk to each other.

Mac: 16:35

That's good.

Terri: 16:35

That you can name it, you can express what it is. But if you are journaling, your brain is processing the emotion and the emotion can be anything. Your brain is processing the emotion and the emotion can be anything. It can be confusion, anger, sadness. Some clients go through rage of why did this happen? And if, at Christmas, with a trigger, you can go back into a state that you can even say I thought, I've worked through this.

Terri: 17:03

But different stages of grief are revisited. You will revisit, you don't move through it and then it's over. So you have to give yourself permission to say here's where I am. And in your mind, if you have journaled the feelings, recognize what the feelings are. A big thing that we want to look at to prevent the unpredictable, if you will, would be to identify what triggers you're going to come up on, what will be a trigger and in those triggers, what memory, what feeling is that going to provoke? I think one thing that's really hard I've seen this with my mother-in-law, your grandma is when she pulls out the ornaments every year she cries and cries remembering her mother.

Terri: 17:46

Her mother gave her an ornament every year. So it's a time for my mother-in-law pulls out all the ornaments, looks at him and cries, anticipating there's going to be a lot of emotion. She sits with that emotion. She remembers her mother. There are certain ornaments that really trigger that, but she's aware so she'll sit with that, but she expects it. I want, if you're out there and you're listening and you're thinking this is going to be such a hard Christmas or Thanksgiving, approach it with journaling compassion, but also identify what your triggers are going to be. It could be like for my mother-in-law ornaments. It could be opening presents. We have a strong tradition of opening presents and then my grandpa or your grandpa, my dad, would get really funny when he would open presents. So don't you kind of miss him in that experience of opening presents yeah, I think that's really good that there.

Mac: 18:43

There it comes in a variety of forms. Grief seems to be non-linear, like it's not this clean process that you can just kind of predictably walk through. It's often way slower than we want it to be and there's like two steps forward, one step back and there's all these different faces that grief can wear, right From sadness to anger to depression and so on. And then there's these grief attacks, often prompted by a trigger of some kind. And I hear you saying it's good to grow in our awareness of what those triggers are so we're less surprised by them. I also want to say we don't know what those triggers are until we're triggered. So if you're listening to this and you're like, don't feel bad if you're triggered and it caught you off guard, that happens.

Mac: 19:34

That happens and I think we all experience this to a degree. I mean, I know, for me one of my triggers is those of you have been part of our church. You know that we've had some hard seasons as a church. You know, about six years ago our former lead pastor had been here for a long time, was terminated and, rather than sort of moving on quietly, he started a church right down the road and that happened all in this time period of moving into the holidays and that was one of the most painful seasons of my life. It really was. Not only was it tons of job-related stress, but I experienced a lot of relationship loss during that time. There was tons of relational fallout as people were sort of trying to navigate all the rumors and different stories out there and felt like they needed to choose sides. It was a hard season but to this day I can be in public and then see someone that I once knew super well but I'm no longer in relationship with and that can be a trigger. It feels very unpredictable.

Terri: 20:47

When are you going?

Mac: 20:47

to run into someone, so I've had to do the work to go, okay. Well, how do I feel when that happens?

Mac: 20:53

so that when it happens I can't control when it happens, but I can now manage my response to it Because I mean one minute you're sipping a vanilla latte with oat milk in it and next minute you're standing face to face with someone who's like ghosting you with a glare on their face Like what do you do with that? Right, and so building our capacity to know what those triggers feel like, so we're not swept up in them but can have some agency in how we respond to them.

Terri: 21:18

And thinking about that, matt, right ahead of time, like even journaling and writing. How do I feel when that comes up on me and how do I want to respond? A lot of this is to prevent. The unpredictable is to say, maybe in journaling or processing with a therapist or talking to a friend, how do I want to respond in that moment and have a predetermined set of behavior that you're going to do? Here's what I'm going to do If it's somebody that really I don't want. Here's what I'm going to do If it's somebody that really I don't want. To say I'm going to give myself permission to walk away or I can go up and speak to them, but kind of like process through it ahead of time. So things aren't as unpredictable, because it's so hard when something just hits you.

Mac: 22:00

Say more about the value of journaling. You mentioned it on our. I think you mentioned it during the podcast last year, but if someone hasn't listened to that episode you've named that journaling does something different than, let's say, just talking about it out loud. Can you fill that out for us a little bit?

Terri: 22:17

Yeah right, when you're talking, you're using the prefrontal cortex and analyzing and using verbalizations. When you're writing, you're using a different part of the brain that goes deeper into the subconscious and connects to the feelings on a much, much deeper level. It's extremely healing and it's powerful. It calms down the amygdala, it calms down certain aspects of the brain, but it helps the brain process the feelings. So I would recommend, if you have a loss, to really journal and journal. And what do you journal? Journal your feelings, journal your experiences. Your brain's going to heal by you processing those feelings and because grief can be isolating and you can feel alone, journaling helps you connect to what those feelings are. You can talk to God. You can journal isolating and you can feel alone. Journaling helps you connect to what those feelings are. You can talk to God, you can journal to.

Terri: 23:09

God, you can journal to God and God does hear your journaling.

Mac: 23:14

Yeah, it's almost like when you say that your brain needs to heal, then I think about the Psalms and how like basically we're getting. I mean, David wrote the vast majority of them. That's like David's journal.

Terri: 23:26

Yeah, oh yeah.

Mac: 23:27

You know what I mean.

Terri: 23:29

Right, I just made that connection when you said that that is him journaling. The Psalms are his journal of lament, right? He's journaling and lamenting the pain, and I think that God must have allowed that, because that's a really healthy model of how we're supposed to do it.

Mac: 23:47

I think so. So if you're listening to this and journaling isn't part of your practice, get a moleskin journal. That's what.

Katie: 23:54

I use If you can afford it. Yeah, that's true, they're the fancy ones.

Mac: 23:58

But give it a shot, because there is some healing that God might be inviting you into through this simple practice.

Terri: 24:05

It's powerful to bring God into it. Journal to God, bring him into it. Maybe God will give you a Psalm or prayer and you can just journal. What's important is you don't do this in a perfectionistic way. It's just kind of let your brain go. We're not going to care about the grammar or the spelling, we're just going to let your brain process what it needs to process. Be very gentle and loving and bring God into it. It's so healing.

Mac: 24:31

So don't let Katie read your journal entries.

Katie: 24:34

I was thinking the same thing about you.

Mac: 24:36

Punctuation and grammar.

Katie: 24:38

That's funny, me too.

Mac: 24:40

Literally All right Let me share a third reason why the holidays might be particularly challenging, and it's because I'll use we language. We suck at knowing how to be with people in grief.

Katie: 24:52

Adam, can you bleep that out? Nope, just kidding.

Mac: 24:59

I haven't always been good at this, so there's a growing curve for me. I remember when I was first married if Josie would start crying, I would. I was so uncomfortable with that Um, like this intense expression of emotion and had to get underneath why do I feel the urge to fix it? And so on, and then gradually learned how to um be present in a way that was helpful, right. So I've been on my own journey of learning how to be present to people who are grieving or upset, but I've also experienced the crummy care of others in my own pain. So I remember when my son Griffin was born. Griffin has Down syndrome.

Mac: 25:40

We did not know ahead of time that he had that diagnosis. We found out after he was born and of course that was a lot to absorb. We were sort of reeling from that news and afterwards news started to spread that we had a child with special needs and had people come up and interact with that. And what I've discovered is when people hear about a loss and then they feel the need to interact with it, oftentimes there are ways of trying to say or do helpful things are less than helpful. I remember on one particular occasion someone said God gives special kids like Griffin to special parents like you. And the person was well-intended, but I remember being really ticked off instantly because I thought to myself well, first of all, you're assuming way too much about God's agency that I don't agree with, that God is dishing out disabilities in the first place. And then, second of all, you're asking me to interpret his special needs as an indication of how special I am, which feels really narcissistic. And it's just an example of a well-intentioned comment that lands with the person in ways that are anything but helpful. And I think that this is a common pattern.

Mac: 26:51

As I've walked alongside people who are experiencing pain or loss or grief or in a challenging season. Oftentimes it's become one of my defaults now to pray protection over them from other people's unhelpful but well-intended and hurtful comments. We even see this in Job. Like Job's friends, when Job loses everything, they sit silently, which they were obligated to do for seven days. But then, the moment they get to open their mouths, what do they do? They pontificate and accuse Job of you must have deserved this for some reason. Just repent, just confess, repent and things will return back to normal. So the moment they open their mouths, you see them relating to Job in ways that are actually hurtful and harmful. What would you guys?

Terri: 27:38

add to that.

Mac: 27:39

Do you notice that too? How does that connect during the holidays?

Terri: 27:44

I think that people try really hard to be there, obviously, but I guess what I would say is people either try to over-spiritualize it, and that's not very helpful to bring in scripture if that's not the place that the person needs to be. Or they tend to intellectualize it, which really is usually not helpful either, and what we want to do is just sit with the emotion of it. Just sit with the emotion of it so we can over-spiritualize.

Mac: 28:16

Over-rationalize.

Terri: 28:17

Over-rationalize, rationalize and what you got is some bad theology with the spiritual. So that was really hard. But people try to intellectualize. Well, here's how I think maybe you should handle this loss and try to fix it. Intellectualize it when you said you had a hard time when Josie was sad sitting with that. Men tend to the first thing they want to do is to fix it. They want to do something, so they tend to intellectualize it and they tend to think how can I fix this?

Mac: 28:50

Well, that's the last thing people in grief need. They don't need fixing and you can't actually do it. You know what I mean, from a rational perspective.

Terri: 28:54

It brings up as you're talking right now. It brings up a thought that I'm having that your pain. When you're sitting with somebody or notice that they're in pain, it actually activates something in you. And whatever it activates right, whatever it activates in you, it's going to be your pain coming up, that you're so uncomfortable. You want them to come out of their pain right now. Stop it, and here's how I want you to stop it.

Mac: 29:21

It's going to actualize your pain. And that makes so much sense because oftentimes, when people do say something I've noticed it's like well, you're saying that more for yourself than the other person, right?

Katie: 29:33

the reason we can't sit with people in their pain is because we don't like to sit in our own pain.

Mac: 29:38

And.

Katie: 29:38

I think if we don't have reps in sitting in our own pain, if we don't have reps journaling, sitting with God, feeling our grief and sadness, like if we can't do that with ourselves, I think it's really really hard, if not impossible, to do that for someone else.

Mac: 29:51

I think that's really spot on. I think those categories are really good too, that we can sort of rationalize it away. I would maybe, as a subcategory of rationalizing away, say theologize. It is not the time to offer positive cliches and pleasant platitudes. It's not the time to like spiritualize it. It's not the time to rationalize it. It's also not the time to do theology. It's a time to be present with people and specifically to their emotional state.

Terri: 30:23

And I think to add to that, know your comfort level with that pain. If you're really uncomfortable and something's happening within you, just sit with your own pain. Let's not speak out of that pain if we're just trying to get them out of theirs. Know if you're in pain and you're uncomfortable and sit with that and not say anything or just try not to do. Let's say this become aware of what your default is when someone's in pain. Know what your default is.

Mac: 30:54

All right, I have a question for you, Terry, while you're here. I read a book about being present to people in their grief, and one of the things this book talked about is some of the primary ways people cope with their grief. The author named three ways. The first is they go off the rails to numb their pain, drinking whatever like have fun.

Mac: 31:20

They kind of do a lot of things that are maybe destructive a little bit. Other one is they isolate, they withdraw from everybody they know and just kind of do a lot of things that are maybe destructive a little bit. Other one is they isolate, they withdraw from everybody they know and just kind of isolate. And then the third one is they begin to perform. So this is kind of my default when I'm grieving is I look at all my commitments and I do them even better.

Mac: 31:38

And it's actually a way to feel more control and process my grief. That last one is actually the most challenging, because people appear like they're doing so well when in fact they're not. But my question is how do you relate to someone who is grieving, but they're grieving in an unhealthy way?

Terri: 31:59

It's a good question and the thought that I have is it really depends what kind of relationship you have with them. If it's someone that you are going to come in contact with at church just, and you don't know them really well, that's going to look different than if you're really close to them. So you really have to gauge what kind of relationship you have with them. But if you have a close relationship, I think you do have an obligation to engage that and say how are you doing? I'm recognizing that you've been drinking more or you've been isolating. If you're isolating, could I just come over for a little bit? Or could we have coffee, maybe once a week? I think it would be important for us to stay connected. I don't want you to isolate. Can we have coffee?

Katie: 32:41

Without the Kahlua yeah.

Mac: 32:45

I'm joking. Yeah, without the Bailey's Irish Whiskey we're going to hear some caffeine.

Katie: 32:48

Can we have a maple latte, maple ube?

Terri: 32:50

It's, whatever unhealthy coping mechanism they're using, address it in a loving, compassionate way and ask them how you can be part of coming into that space, whether it's I've noticed you've been drinking too much. What's going on? Are you okay? I've noticed you've been isolating. How about you and I go out for coffee? I notice you seem like you're doing really well and you're back in the swing of things, but that has me a little concerned because it seems like I don't know. But let me just check in. Are you actually taking time to feel those feelings and thinking about how you want to address what it is that you're concerned about? But should you address it Absolutely In the right space, in the right time, in the right kind of emotion? You want to address that?

Mac: 33:43

That's really good. So relationship matters. You need to be proximate to this person. They've invited you into their life and I hear you saying it starts with just naming for them, in a compassionate way, what you're noticing here's what I'm observing and I'm concerned about it and then intercepting it with an invitation If you're isolating, hey, let's get together. If you're drinking too much or something, some self-destructive behavior, let's do this together.

Katie: 34:13

Yeah, we talk a lot at this church about grace and truth and that's what I hear as you're narrating that Like lots and lots of grace for people to be where they are, and also some challenge, some truth.

Terri: 34:24

And if I could talk about a concept that it brings into my mind is I tell my clients grief is a long tunnel that you have to go through. There's light at the other end and you want to escape the tunnel and there's a lot of mechanisms and coping mechanisms that are unhealthy that will help you escape that tunnel. But if you don't go through it, they stay stuck in you and they will get reactivated at a later time. So the best thing you can do is give yourself time to process those feelings. Stay in the tunnel. God is with you in the tunnel. God will be with you, but you cannot escape that.

Terri: 35:01

And they will want to get out of that tunnel as fast as they can and they will short-circuit it tunnel as fast as they can and they will short circuit it and there are a lot of ways to short circuit pain. But it'll come back. It doesn't go away.

Mac: 35:11

It's almost like the image of you're walking down a dark tunnel. It's uncomfortable. You'd rather just be on the other end to know there's an out and there's a door on the side and you could choose that door, but it's a self-destructive door. And and you could choose that door, but it's a self-destructive door.

Katie: 35:26

And when you finally get, out of that door, you're still in the tunnel. Yeah, yeah, the escape hatch is not really an escape hatch, and if you would, have just kept moving it'd be.

Mac: 35:31

Well, you'd be in a different spot, a different location. That's right. I hear that. Okay. So we've tried to articulate some of the reasons why grief is amplified during this holiday season. I want to transition us a bit and I'm hoping we can chat for a moment about the integration or intersection of spiritual formation and mental health. This is something we highly value here at church. We place a high value on emotional maturity and mental health and we see these running side by side with each other. That emotional maturity is actually essential part of our spiritual formation, and I've been told that's not actually a conviction at a lot of other churches. I don't know if we're unique or not. It just seems obvious that these go together for me, but I thought it might be helpful to talk about how we see the scriptures and perhaps Jesus specifically encouraging us to attend to our grief as part of our spiritual formation. So how do you see the scriptures, and specifically Jesus, maybe teaching us to attend to our grief when it's there in our lives?

Katie: 36:33

Yeah, I mean I think you just read the New Testament gospels, and there's stories all over the place of Jesus feeling pain himself like in his full humanness. Uh, feeling pain himself like in his full humanness, um, and also entering into the pain of other people, Um, we talked a lot about this, I feel, like in our, in our series on emotional health maturity, how Jesus embodied the full spectrum of human emotions. Even though he was God in the flesh and he could have fixed things Like, he still felt that emotion. Like, for example, with Lazarus, when his good friend Lazarus dies and he goes there knowing I assume, knowing he was going to raise him, but yet he still sits there and he weeps and he cries and he enters into the pain of his family and friends.

Mac: 37:18

Yeah, one of the things I love about that story too is that when both Mary and Martha come out to meet Jesus because he delayed his trip, they say if you had been here, my brother would not have died. And I often say that's not an affirmation of faith, that's an accusation. I imagine, as I put myself in that story. They're like where were you? If you had been here, he wouldn't be in the grave right now. And Jesus doesn't get defensive and I point to that to go when you're upset. You named Terry that one of the faces that grief can wear is anger, and sometimes that anger isn't just here at what happened, the loss I'm experiencing, but it's at God that he allowed it. And if we look at Jesus, if Jesus is what God looks like, you can say God, where were you?

Adam: 38:15

Mm-hmm.

Mac: 38:16

And God meets you in that moment, not with how dare you question me, but with compassion, to the point where, as you just shared, katie, he ends up weeping. He weeps with those who weep and mourns with those who mourn.

Katie: 38:29

Yeah, I love that.

Mac: 38:30

Jesus gives us a master class in what it looks like to attend to our own grief in the Garden of Gethsemane and what it looks like to be present to those who are grieving, and then gives these little glimpses along the way of the new kingdom. To go and guess what? Grief doesn't get the last word. I do.

Terri: 38:54

I love that. I love that. And with Mary and Martha they were probably really angry Part of their grief process. They were angry and you bring up a good point. Sometimes we look for other people to blame.

Mac: 39:05

Yes.

Terri: 39:05

Like we want to blame somebody. In this case it was Jesus. If you would have been here, this wouldn't have happened. But I love that he wept I love that expression, knowing he could raise him from the dead and would. And he still wept in that experience of pain. And I use that because do you think, mac, that sometimes people think, if you are a strong Christian and know God, that you shouldn't feel sad or shouldn't feel those feelings?

Mac: 39:31

Yes, I do encounter that theology sometimes, and I don't I think it's with people who put a premium on the New Testament that in light of Jesus's victory, there's no. Where is the sting? That kind of a thing, and I want to say, yes, that's the future that we're still awaiting, right, we're still living in a broken and fallen world. We can't just throw out. We talked about lament Psalms before. Those are there for a reason. It's David's diary of. Here's the pain I'm experiencing in life and I'm bringing that. I've noticed that pain, I'm naming that pain, I'm sitting with that pain and I'm bringing it to God in a posture of faith and trust. And that is the largest. There's many different types of psalms in the Old Testament and that is the largest. There's many different types of psalms in the Old Testament. You have thanksgiving psalms, praise psalms but, actually the largest category are laments.

Mac: 40:32

There are I looked it up there's 150 psalms altogether and about a third of them are lament psalms. 42 of them are individual laments. And then what I think is really interesting is that 16 of them are individual laments, and then what I think is really interesting is that 16 of them are communal laments. So there's also times when we might be experiencing collective grief, grief that we all have a connection to, and what does it look like for us as a community to come together and go? We're all feeling loss. How can we write our pain out, journal it out and create space to confess that to one another and to God, and then orient with a posture of trust that God can heal us and that God's present to us and that this won't have the final word?

Terri: 41:15

So there's a place to feel and then there's a place to remind ourself that God is there with us and that sort of spiritual connection to remind ourself that God is there with us in that. So a spiritual connection to it through God is with us. But we have a right and we have permission to still feel what we feel, even if it's still really anger at God. He can handle that.

Mac: 41:34

God can handle that. God can handle that. One other thing I thought of when it comes to the integration of scripture and grief is that practice I alluded to earlier, with Job's friends sitting Shiva Shiva is the number seven in Hebrew, and so it's this practice of when someone experienced a death, for the first seven days they would actually sit in silence and mourn. It was a way of honoring that person who had passed and honoring the loss that they were feeling themselves. So that's why, you see, job's friends, they're just, they're obligated to do that, but it was a wise obligation, a way of honoring their grief, and so they sat in silence for seven days.

Mac: 42:16

And you see this show up in other places. When Jacob dies, in Genesis 50, his family sits in silence for seven days mourning the loss. When Moses and Aaron died, because they were so significant as such significant leaders, they did it for 30 days, but it's just to go, man. The Jewish people had an insight there that I think is really significant. They actually had a way, a mechanism, a practice for acknowledging and honoring the loss of a loved one and the grief that comes with that.

Katie: 42:45

Yeah, yeah, we certainly don't do that in our fast-paced culture.

Mac: 42:52

Not well enough. Yeah, I mean, I can't even imagine sitting silent for seven days.

Terri: 42:57

I can't imagine you doing that either or seven minutes or seven days. I can't imagine you doing that either. Or seven minutes or seven minutes.

Mac: 43:04

All right, let's speak into the lives of our listeners who might be going through grief in an intensified way this year. What would you say to those who are experiencing grief like this holiday season? They're about to enter this season. They may already be feeling it. What would you say to them?

Terri: 43:23

I would say again journal kind of get connected to your feelings and give yourself permission to ask yourself what do I want to do? Give yourself permission to maybe avoid some events. One thing that I think, first of all, let me clarify it's a highly individualized kind of decision. There's no right way or wrong way, but it has to be your way and I would recommend journaling and praying and saying I'm going to give myself permission to do this holiday any way. I want to do it and be very creative. One thing that I tell my clients is, if you're going to go to an event, a holiday event gathering, have an exit strategy.

Terri: 44:07

If you start getting overwhelmed and sad. Whatever the emotion is. You have an exit strategy to say, hey, I'm not doing. Okay, Whatever phraseology you want to use, but have that phraseology kind of planted in your head ahead of time. But you have an exit strategy I'm going to leave now, Okay. And even if you come to a party and say, hey, I'm just stopping in, I'm here for a short time, I just wanted to say hi, People expect you'll be there. You can stay if you want to, but it gives you a reason to leave. So have some thoughts about how you can prepare yourself as you're coming into an event with an exit strategy If you are going to go.

Terri: 44:46

I've read some things. Some people think you can cancel the holiday and stay home. I actually don't love that idea. I think you go for the limited time that you can do it because I don't want you home. If you're my client, I go. I don't want you home by yourself. I want you to go in the way that you can go. Experience your authentic, real self. Give yourself permission to leave, Figure out how you can do it and what works for you, but try to manage a little bit. Isolation is just not where.

Mac: 45:16

I like people.

Terri: 45:17

I don't love that.

Mac: 45:18

That's great. I hear that as a really empowering word. This isn't the season to be a people pleaser, let other people's expectations determine what you do.

Mac: 45:31

But I also hear if one extreme would be engage all of your holidays just the way you normally would to meet people's expectations of what you should do. The other extreme is to say, well, I'm done with that and you just sit at home by yourself. There's probably a middle ground where you get to reclaim some agency and determine how you want to be present, based on your limitations, and that exit strategy feels really important. I was at a gathering this past June. We were having a volunteer appreciation banquet and we had a beloved individual on staff named Sam who oversaw our building for a number of years and he had a variety of health issues and he passed actually in December it was just before Christmas a couple of years ago and I was very close to Sam.

Mac: 46:21

I was there for with him during his decline, got very close to his wife when he passed away just a beautiful woman and we had a team of trustees after his death step up and so we didn't rehire that position. A team of volunteers said we got it and during our volunteer appreciation banquet this past June we honored those trustees and in the process we talked about Sam and his wife was overwhelmed. She had a grief spasm, understandably so, and I was so proud of her because she got up and we were at a different venue, we weren't here at church and she just departed and she just sat in her pain for a little bit and I went out there and Deb went out on another person on staff and we just put our arm around her and she she just acknowledged it's hitting me right now Good, good for her.

Mac: 47:14

And I was so proud of her.

Terri: 47:17

And what I love about that is it's okay to think about that ahead of time. If I'm going to go to an event that I think I might be okay, but I'm not sure how am I going to handle that and what is my exit strategy. I have to sit in that pain but it's okay for me to leave. And what you're saying, mac, is just give yourself permission that there is no right way. You can do it anyway. Do it your way, whatever works for you. If you have a thought cognition you know everybody that knows I like to talk about cognitions If you have a cognition, I should, I must be able to. Why can't I? Why can't I Get that out of your head?

Mac: 47:51

Don't should on yourself.

Terri: 47:56

Did he just say that, Katie?

Katie: 47:58

He says that often. Did he say it? Okay, it's a common phrase around here.

Terri: 48:01

He says that yeah, give yourself permission to say it's my holiday and I'm going to do it the way I want to do it, just like the popsicle thing. It's like, hey, it's my popsicles and I want them. You have permission to be assertive, to say it's my holiday and I'm going to do it the way I want to do it and it's going to be— I'm grieving. Give me my popsicles. I'm grieving and here's how I want to grieve.

Terri: 48:25

And here's how you're going to fix it and here's how I want it to look. And it's okay to say maybe I—well, here's another thing Ask for what you need. You need to ask for what you need. If you're going into a holiday gathering and you know you're needing something, you ask for it in a very real, authentic way. You have to be assertive. Think of that popsicle. I want my popsicle. I want to tell you here's what I'm going to need in this gathering for me to be okay. Could we forego this? Whatever that I know is gonna trigger me.

Mac: 49:04

And, as your friend, I so want to give you a popsicle.

Terri: 49:07

I know because you're gonna wanna do that if. I ask you in my grief.

Mac: 49:10

Yes, everybody's a fixer. So how empowering if you have a group of friends who want to help and you have the awareness to say here's what you can do, here's what I need in this moment.

Katie: 49:21

Right, right, yeah, that's good, that's really good. Another one I would say is just, you know, it's really important to find places of trust and support. Early on in this conversation, mac, you talked about people who say things, while well-intentioned, that really aren't helpful, and I would encourage those who are grieving to just find people who will create space to just honor and acknowledge your grief without making you feel like you should be somewhere other than where you are. Find the people who are just going to let you be where you're at, not minimize it, not try to pull you out of it, not try to fix it or hey, look at the bright side, but just surround yourself with people who care, people who you can be yourself with, who you can feel like you can truly be authentic with, and that might even include professional help right?

Terri: 50:14

I would think so. I think the reason people love to go to therapists is they're neutral. Okay, we just I don't know maybe who you're talking about or who you agree for, whatever loss it is, but I can be there in an objective way and sit in the pain with you but also help you, maybe come up with strategies to help you move through it.

Mac: 50:35

I also wrote a note down, so it's fun that you name that. I wrote down the difference between inside and outside help and the reason why is because I I've been through some pretty difficult seasons in life where I'm going through hard things and um, and of course my wife, josie um, is a huge advocate for me. So I'm very open with her and can process with her. She's wonderful and I have some dear friends that I know I can go to. But I don't want my wife and I don't want my friends to become my therapist.

Mac: 51:06

Josie's my wife, you're my friend and I think sometimes we can, like the dynamic of a friendship can change, where all of a sudden we turn a friend into a therapist and then it becomes a different set of problems later on. And so I guess I would add that, yes, find those trusted friends. You need community around you. But I would also advocate have some people outside of your friend group that you can go to and it might be a therapist. I would highly encourage that. I also have a group of friends outside of my context that I know I can call. They're on speed dial and because they're not in it with me day and day, like that's different, it just feels different. So have some inside support. Also have some outside support.

Terri: 51:54

And if I could add to that, research supports that one of the best support-based systems is a support group, so a group of people that you can find going through the same thing doesn't have to be the exact same loss, but the same thing, like the death of a spouse.

Katie: 52:14

Some type of loss, some kind of loss.

Terri: 52:18

The brain responds really well in recognizing that someone else gets where you're at, not just a therapist that says, yeah, I understand, because I am not in that place, that they are, but some of that is actually going through that experience at the same time.

Mac: 52:35

They're on the inside of your experience.

Terri: 52:37

They're on the inside and outside of your experience. They're on the inside of yeah, inside and outside of the experience. So you have a counseling support group, but they're on the inside and outside at the same time. You're building community and you're building connections of people that get it, but they have the support there for you.

Mac: 52:53

I was checking in on someone in our church who lost a loved one during the holidays a couple years ago. This was maybe a few months ago. I just said, how are you doing? And the individual said I, I'm. I'm finally seeing a therapist and it's been so helpful and I wish I would have done it sooner. So I just say that to say if you're listening and you're kind of sitting on the fence and maybe you've been dragging your feet a little bit, um, and I know not every therapist is created equal, but there are a lot of good therapists out there and if you need help finding one, please reach out to us. We'd love to get you connected and help you find the support you need for this holiday season.

Terri: 53:33

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mac: 53:36

Maybe a final thing I'll say and this has been building on everything we've been talking about but a third thing to do during this holiday season is just to be kind to yourself while you embrace the suck. If you're in a season of grief right now, this may be, I think, the most important contribution I think I could make, which is just to be where you are and be kind to yourself along the way. Grief really stinks. It's not fun. You didn't choose it, it chooses you. It's super disruptive. It can be all-consuming and there's no escaping its effects.

Mac: 54:11

And its effects are there as I've walked with people who are grieving. They talk about it. It affects their body. They're tired, they're exhausted, they don't feel like themselves. They're tired, they're exhausted, they don't feel like themselves, they're not sleeping well, they may not have much of an appetite. It can affect their minds. They have a hard time concentrating, they have brain fog and it can affect their emotions.

Mac: 54:34

As we've talked, some people just feel flat, other people feel angry, other people feel numb. So it's just like there's so many, as we were talking about earlier, so many different ways that it shows up and so many different ways that grief can affect you. That just puts you at a place where you're not at your best. You're not at your best, and I think it does bad work to expect yourself to be so. Be kind to yourself, be patient with yourself, be gracious towards yourself. Give yourself yourself to be so. Be kind to yourself. Be patient with yourself, be gracious towards yourself. Give yourself permission to be where you are. Give yourself permission to grieve in your own way and at your own pace. Prioritize some extra rest and care and limit your obligations. Maybe watch yourself talk along the way.

Terri: 55:20

Right, Right, your self-talk along the way, right, right, your self-talk is important, right, when you're talking. If I could add something really, quick.

Terri: 55:26

When you're going through something as devastating as grief. It takes tremendous energy out of your body. So what will be compromised is your emotions, the physicality, your energy level, your ability to concentrate and even your connection to God. All of those things take energy out of your body. To feel good, to have energy to exercise, go outside, have emotional space, to connect to people and have a connection to God, take energy. When you're in a grief state that takes a lot of energy and when that energy is compromised in a form of intense emotion, be very gentle and understand. You don't have the energy to work out maybe or even get off the couch. You may not feel and this is important to say a connection to God, because God and a connection to God takes energy in the brain and without that energy source you can feel that God's very far away.

Mac: 56:25

He is there. Oh, that's so important. That's so important because it feels like, in those most intense moments of grief, that God can be absent. You feel as though God's absent. Where are?

Terri: 56:38

you. Are you, god, in my most devastating moment of pain, I feel like you've left me and it's important then to go. He's not left me, but it takes energy to feel a presence and a connection emotionally to God and your energy is going into the grief yeah, it's not that God's absence right absent, it's that you don't have the energy to detect his presence.

Adam: 57:02

Exactly. Yeah, that's a good word.

Mac: 57:06

Well, it is praxis time right, when we kind of give our listeners some really practical tools to take with them, Like, in light of this conversation, you may already have some action steps to go oh, I'm gonna start journaling or whatever but let's crystallize some really concrete things people can do as they head into the holidays.

Terri: 57:28

The first practice is increasing your awareness, and what we talked about was the journaling. So journaling access is that part of the brain where you can connect to what you're feeling. And you, named Mac, also know your self-talk. What kind of shoulds am I telling myself, what kind of expectations do I have? That comes in your self-talk. But also the awareness is where am I right now? Where am I? What space am I in?

Mac: 57:56

What can I do? What can't I do?

Terri: 57:58

Absolutely. I'm going to go back to journaling because that's where your brain's going to give you the answers. You actually know the answers inside of you, but you've got to process it through journaling and connecting to your inner kind of core. No one can tell you where you're at. You're the only one that knows where you're at. Journaling brings it into your awareness and a lot of people when they're in pain and you mentioned this, mac three coping mechanisms they want to avoid the pain at all costs, and part of avoidance is I don't want to feel. So how can I get out of this feeling? I have clients that go no, I'm not journaling, and the reason they don't want to is they know what it's going to do. It's going to connect them really strong to their feeling.

Mac: 58:45

It's almost like avoiding going back to that tunnel. Avoiding lengthens the tunnel, that's right.

Terri: 58:50

Yeah, that's right, and it also gives them an experience of what they're feeling. People are really adept at compartmentalization, and if they've compartmentalized emotions out of their brain their whole life. Grief is no different.

Terri: 59:04

They'll compartmentalize out the pain and the emotion, they'll go into performance orientation and they will sit and stay away from that pain. And a lot of what I do is try to pull people out of the compartmentalized experience of their emotion, and journaling is phenomenal at pulling you out of that compartmentalized space. It's the hardest thing you'll do, but it's the best thing that you're doing. It's increasing the awareness of what you're feeling.

Mac: 59:30

If you can't afford a moleskin.

Terri: 59:33

I will buy you one.

Mac: 59:34

Just contact me, we'll get you a journal.

Terri: 59:36

What is a moleskin?

Mac: 59:37

It's just like a hardcover journal. It's my favorite kind.

Terri: 59:42

I tell my clients to get notebooks like little 10-cent notebooks. But now I'll tell them to get Moleskine.

Adam: 59:47

I would also just throw in there. There are guided journals too. Sometimes journaling can be intimidating and you don't really know where to start. There's plenty of guided journals out there too that just give you any sort of prompt, really basic answers that you can give to things to kind of get you started.

Katie: 1:00:04

That's great. Yeah, you're a journaler, right Adam.

Adam: 1:00:07

I go through seasons.

Katie: 1:00:08

Okay, yeah, same same, I love journaling. Yeah, another practice might just be to practice compassion. If you're someone who's going through pain and grief right now, be sure you're compassionate to yourself, and if you're listening to this and you're not in a season of grief, I would encourage you to practice compassion for other people. I think the Christmas season can be difficult because it's really busy. There are so many things for us to plan for and places for us to be, and there's gifts to buy and blah, and if we're not careful, our attention can become completely consumed by stuff that's like right in front of us.

Mac: 1:00:46

And we miss those people that are grieving Exactly Right.

Katie: 1:00:49

Yeah, we can miss seeing those around us and what they're dealing with, and so we really want to keep our eyes open to the grief of those around us, and I think that can be extra hard in this season.

Mac: 1:01:02

That's such a good word Be interruptible. Right, you get what I'm saying Be interruptible because, so many of the most profound moments we get to hear about in the gospels are when Jesus is on his way.

Mac: 1:01:16

He's on his way to one place, and then someone who it would be really easy to just walk past the woman who's been bleeding for 12 years he's like rushing to save this 12 year old girl from death and all of a sudden this other person touches the hem and he stops let me say Katie knows this I'm good at being interruptible.

Terri: 1:01:36

I'm not the best at being intentional. So I have a really good friend who has lost her husband and I'm trying to walk with her in this season of grief. But my struggle is to be intentional in making that time. I'm good at just if someone. I'm right there in the moment with whoever needs me so I can be interrupted. But I have a struggle with I have to be intentional. So my intentionality is I need to meet with her at least once a week and connect with her, and once I say that and what you're talking about, katie, is that compassion and being there for someone is make a plan and say, hey, I've noticed that I just haven't been the best at connecting. How about if we meet every Friday at 1030 and then I make a plan? I'm busy then, but thanks for the invite.

Mac: 1:02:34

No, that's so good. If you are listening and you know someone who's going to be grieving this holiday season, spend some time thinking about what they might need, ask them and put a plan together where you can really be intentional. A third practice I would name is give people permission to be where they are. We've given you, if you're grieving, permission to be where you are. If you're walking alongside other people.

Mac: 1:02:56

This is one of the best things I know I can do as a pastor, as I've walked alongside people are in really tough seasons is just I often will just say it you have permission to be where you are. Right now, there are three women in our church about my age who have been diagnosed with breast cancer. There's a man about my age who has been diagnosed with incurable cancer. There's a lot of people I know who are hurting and I'm trying to be present as a pastor with care and I've been told one of the things that I keep saying that's most helpful is it's okay to be where you are and instead of trying to say things to fix it because I can't, is just to normalize what they're experiencing and I often name it.

Mac: 1:03:38

I'll say I so badly want to take this away from you. I wish I could and I can't. But I can give you my hand, I can be present, you know. So again, don't try to change it or fix it, because most of the time you can't. You don't need to give them answers, you can just give them your presence. You don't have to minimize it or put a positive spin on it. Just acknowledge that this is hard, that they're sitting in pain, and be present, even if it's uncomfortable for you. It's not about having the right words, it's simply about showing up and being there for them and remember that God is present. I often think that the worst it gets, the more God is present.

Mac: 1:04:25

The deeper the grief, the closer God is. And stay anchored there.

Terri: 1:04:32

That's good.

Katie: 1:04:34

Yeah, guys. Well, this has been a great conversation, I think a heavy one, but a good one. For those of you who are anticipating or experiencing grief as we head into the holiday season, I hope you heard us. Give you permission to be where you are. Yes, this season will be hard, so embrace the suck, find people who can support you and be kind to yourself. And for those of you who are walking alongside someone in grief, I hope we gave you some imagination for what it looks like to support them in this season. Again, don't minimize it, don't try to change it, don't put a positive spin on it. Just be a loving, supportive presence and look for ways to extend the love of Jesus.

Mac: 1:05:12

Next time we're hoping to close out our series on the great de-churching by talking about how to engage or relate to those who have de-churched, and by talking about how to engage or relate to those who have de-churched. And spoiler alert, it's not through pressure tactics, but relational presence. So see you next time.

Adam: 1:05:30

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.