The Forgiveness of Jesus

Josiah: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. So we're in a series right now on the topic of forgiveness, and a few topics are more central to the Christian faith. Through Jesus, God offers us the gift of forgiveness and invites us into a restorative relationship. It's easy for us to rejoice in God's gift of forgiveness, Yet we often have a tough time practicing forgiveness ourselves.Josiah: 0:30

Rather than embracing the freedom and transformation that comes with forgiveness, including the possibility of a reconciled relationship, we get stuck in bitterness and resentment, to our own detriment. So in this series, we're talking about how to practice and embody the forgiveness that Jesus invites and challenges us to live into. Whether it's learning how to receive God's forgiveness, asking others to forgive you or extending forgiveness to others, our hope and prayer is that you would sense God inviting you deeper into practicing the way of Jesus with us. Today we're taking a look at Jesus. What did Jesus have to say about forgiveness, and not just in his teachings and preaching. What about the way he lived his life and interacted with others? If we're going to break out of the prison of unforgiveness, the first step is to fix our eyes on the person of Jesus. So that's where we're headed today.

Mac: 1:33

Well, welcome everyone. My name is Mac, I'm Katie and I'm Josiah. Good to see you guys, it's good to be with you. I have a question to get us started, and here it is. If your spouse was here Alex for you, Brooke, for you, Josiah what would they say is one annoying thing you do at home?

Katie:

I don't vacuum enough.

Adam: 1:57

I believe Alex has said that you don't even know how to operate the vacuum?

Katie: 2:03

Yeah, that might be true.

Adam: 2:03

That might be true.

Katie: 2:04

Well, I know how to like turn it on. I maybe don't even know how to operate the vacuum. Yeah, that might be true. That might be true. Well, I know how to like turn it on. I maybe don't know how to work all the extensions and compartments. What? There are no compartments, no, there's like the arm with the. There's like a bunch of different pieces that snap into the arm.

Mac: 2:17

My kids know how to vacuum, yeah.

Katie: 2:19

I mean, I know how to vacuum, but that's not something annoying you do.

Mac: 2:22

That's something really annoying you don't do. Let me go back to the drawing it also makes Alex look really chauvinistic.

Josiah: 2:28

No, he's not at all. His number one complaint about you is that you don't vacuum enough.

Katie: 2:32

He's not at all, it's actually kind of a joke between us. If you knew him, you'd know he's not like that. He made fun of me for how I washed my face, but that's like an annoying thing.

Mac: 2:42

Well, how do you wash your face?

Katie: 2:43

I don't know, I think I just wash it like anyone washes their face clearly not adam's, laughing really hard. How do you wash your face? I just go like this and put the soap on okay, but why is he?

Mac: 2:54

what does he do?

Katie: 2:55

I don't know ask him he doesn't wash his face. I think he just splashes water on it okay, weird.

Mac: 3:00

Why are you laughing so hard?

Adam: 3:02

I don't know, these are just really peculiar things.

Mac: 3:04

Yeah, he's really annoyed with how you wash your face.

Josiah: 3:07

Yeah, I would say probably the.

Katie: 3:10

Sorry, go ahead. I thought of one.

Josiah: 3:11

I would say the most. She would probably name. One of the more annoying things I do is I like to interrupt her while she's working. I could see that.

Katie: 3:19

Do you do that purposely?

Josiah: 3:27

It starts subconsciously, oh, because she's focused on work and I'd rather have her pay attention to me. So I'll find something that we need to talk about, like right now, and then it's not something we need to talk about right now and just want her attention.

Mac: 3:38

Does she let you know that?

Josiah: 3:39

Yeah, but I'm not always good at backing off sometimes, and then it will start something or I will. Does anybody else do this? I like to start fights just for fun With your wife. Yeah, now, when I say fight, there is a. There's like a one.

Katie: 3:59

It's like a tiff.

Josiah: 3:59

Yes, there's like a one where it's like, oh, we're just, it's a quabble.

Katie: 4:04

It's not a big deal. Yes, there's like a one where it's like oh, we're just it's a quabble.

Josiah: 4:04

It's not a big deal, but then there's like tens that are like you don't talk to each other.

Mac: 4:09

So you're doing ones.

Josiah: 4:11

I'm starting like twos and threes. That's funny. That would be super annoying. It really frustrates her because, like she's, she would rather not. I'm just like want to bring up a subject, or you know, kind of talk sarcastically about something and kind of provoke her and then argue a little bit. I don't know it feels good.

Mac: 4:32

We were shoveling last night and I flirtatiously tackled Josie into the snow.

Katie: 4:36

Oh, was she annoyed.

Mac: 4:37

She loved it yeah.

Katie: 4:39

I don't see her being annoyed by that. I don't see her being annoyed. I thought of a couple things. So we have like a double sink in our bathroom and sometimes mine is too crowded with things, so I'll use his side of the sink to like wash my face or brush my teeth and I'll get water all over the place and then I don't clean it up because I don't realize it's there and he gets kind of annoyed about that. And then the other thing is that Alex has an electric car and when you pull it out you have to take the plug out and you're supposed to like put it on the hang it back up hang it back up and, like you're supposed to like, put the cord.

Katie: 5:14

like what am I trying to say? Wrap the cord.

Adam: 5:15

Similar to a vacuum similar to a vacuum cord. Yep, yep, you're just out of practice because you don't use the vacuum enough.

Josiah: 5:22

That's why you don't know how to use the one.

Katie: 5:24

Yes, exactly, I don't know how to use our vacuum enough and I don't always hang it up. And then also related to the car I don't pull over enough in the garage, so a lot of times he'll be driving into the driveway, have to stop, get out back the car put it in closer and then move the car in.

Mac: 5:46

So there's three for you. All of those things you just named would be really annoying people picking fights with you just for their own entertainment. You know they have their own sink, and yet they're using yours and leaving it a mess like we have to get back on your side okay.

Mac: 6:01

So the reason that this question came to mind is because when Jim Harrington met Josie we were down in San Antonio last week doing a little training he asked her this like right away and like very quickly like Mac, you can't say anything, I just want to hear what she has to say how funny so here's what she said about me. Oh, I want to hear this.

Josiah: 6:21

Oh yeah.

Mac: 6:21

This is yeah, so I on Sundays, I'm usually pretty wiped after interacting with everybody and I take a nap. When I get home, I'll eat and then take a nap. She doesn't have a problem with me taking a nap, but it's where I take it If I fall asleep in my room, like I'm out out, you know. So I always choose the couch where everybody is.

Josiah: 6:50

Everybody has to walk around carefully.

Mac: 6:52

But I'll put on my noise-canceling headphones with a sound machine sort of like app and there can be like all hell can be breaking loose around me and I will have no idea she's dealing with all that, she's staring over at you In the living room.

Katie: 7:11

It's like in your face, peacefully sleeping.

Mac: 7:14

There was one time where, literally one of our kids was losing it, probably five feet from me and I was just out cold peacefully.

Katie: 7:22

You were probably hearing it in your dream and having some story around it. That's funny, did she?

Josiah: 7:28

say anything else, no, just that.

Katie: 7:31

She's like let me tell you how much time do you have?

Mac: 7:34

Alright. Well, you know, speaking of nuisances and things that are really annoying. We're sitting in this tension right now that, on the one hand, we know God loves us and forgives us, and we also know that we're supposed to forgive others, and yet we so struggle with this, like the parable of the unmerciful servant. We're so quickly to forget God's forgiveness and then refuse to forgive other people. And so far in this series we've been dealing with how we get stuck in forgiveness. So quick review here during our first episode we talked about what forgiveness is and isn't, and the reason why is because many of us resist forgiving others because we confuse forgiveness with something it isn't. So we're actually not resisting forgiveness, we're resisting something other than forgiveness. So it's important to get clear on what forgiveness is and isn't. So we're not resisting forgiveness when we're actually resisting something else. But then last episode we talked about what we call the cycle of enemy-making. We've also called it the flywheel of unforgiveness. You can call it whatever you want, but this is a vicious cycle where, when someone wrongs us, we respond by ruminating on that wrong, hardening our hearts towards the other person who has wronged us, and over time what that does is it ends up causing us to de-imagiode them. So we dehumanize them and eventually that leads to taking revenge. And we talked a little bit about there's different degrees of intensity and harm with that revenge. But the talked a little bit about there's different degrees of intensity and harm with that revenge. But the more we get caught up in this cycle, the harder it is to get out.

Mac: 9:12

Well, today we want to talk about the key to breaking out of the cycle of enemy making. We want to say that the wrong someone did to you doesn't have to determine how you respond. You get to determine that Between the stimulus of a wrongdoing and your response, you have a choice to make Before you jump into the flywheel of unforgiveness. You can choose something different and you can do that by reclaiming your agency. And the first step towards reclaiming your agency is by fixing your eyes on Jesus. So today we want to take a deep and long look at what did Jesus have to say about forgiveness, and not just what he said about it in his preaching and teaching. We also want to look at the way Jesus lived his life and interacted with other people, because if we're going to break out of the prison of unforgiveness, the first step is to attend deeply to the way of Jesus so that we can do the same. So does that make sense? You guys tracking?

Josiah: 10:07

Yeah, all right.

Mac: 10:09

What would you add? Anything I missed?

Katie: 10:12

Yeah, I think we've laid a really solid foundation in the last two episodes, but I am especially excited for today because I think whenever we talk about something related to emotional health or relationships like forgiveness, I know I can get really excited to learn about it, and sometimes the temptation can be to get so focused on the information or the principles or the practical application that I can forget the anchor point, which is Jesus. So I think that's important and I think we want to always come back to looking at him first. So I'm excited for this conversation.

Josiah: 10:45

Cool. Yeah, we kind of do that with all of our subjects. Here we're trying to point it back to Jesus, but here we're saying, rather than trying to say, where does this fit with Jesus? We're actually going to look to Jesus as he's the source of our ability to forgive. It starts with him, so that's where we have to begin the journey.

Katie: 11:05

All right. So in our episodes in the series so far and I'm hoping we can do this again is we've provided a feature story of forgiveness. Last week I talked about Ruby Bridges. What a powerful and inspiring story she was of courage and forgiveness, at least for me, especially given that she was a six-year-old. What she did was incredible. But do either of you have a feature story that we could use today for inspiration on this episode?

Josiah: 11:28

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to tell the story of Corrie Ten Boom. So if you're not familiar, she grew up in Holland late 18. I think she was born in the late 18.

Mac: 11:42

No, Holland, holland. Yes, it was a joke, I know that.

Josiah: 11:50

She grew up in Holland sort of in a very Christian home. Her dad was a watchmaker and their family. As she got older she sort of learned the trade, which, side note, is actually kind of cool. She was actually the first woman to ever become licensed as a watchmaker in.

Josiah: 12:12

Holland, so she's kind of a go-getter. Nazism was spreading across Europe. They very quickly became aware that they had a role to play in helping house Jews and protecting them from Nazi soldiers. So their house became this place where they would hide people. They were fearless in that and you can read all about this in her book called the Hiding Place, but it's estimated that they saved the lives of over 800 people. Wow, wow. So all of this is, you know, they end up leading an entire underground movement where they would store people, essentially for a short amount of time and then communicate with other safe houses outside of the city Anyway, their whole family did a really cool work in that and then communicate with other safe houses outside of the city. Anyway, their whole family did a really cool work in that. But eventually one of their neighbors betrayed them and ended up. Their whole family was arrested, some of them were killed and our dad was imprisoned.

Josiah: 13:34

But Corey and her sister were sent to the Ravens Ravensbrook concentration camp outside of Berlin and experienced all the atrocities of these camps Unspeakable cruelty to her and some of her family members around her Literally watched her sister die at the hands of these soldiers and a couple of weeks after her sister is killed she actually gets released on a clerical error.

Josiah: 13:56

It was like really random that she was able to be released. Post her release she sort of regroups her life, sets up an entire rehabilitation center for concentration camp survivors after the war and basically the rest of her life she spent traveling, speaking, writing. She received lots of like commendations and sort of awards for some of the humanitarian work she did. But I want to center on this story that it wasn't long after the war where she made it out of the camp and, uh, it was one of the first times visiting berlin again after leaving, and while she was there, uh, she was approached by a man that looked sort of sort of uh, sort of familiar to her and rather than me telling the story, I actually wanted to play a clip, if that's all right, where it's a clip of her giving essentially a sermon on forgiveness to a church and she shares a story about this interaction.

Corrie Ten Boom: 14:59

I t was some time ago that I was in Berlin and there came a man to me and said Mr Boom, I am glad to see you. Don't you know me? And suddenly I saw that man that was one of the most cruel out-seers guards in the concentration camp. And that man said I am now a Christian, I have found the Lord Jesus. I read my Bible and I know that there is forgiveness for all the sins of the whole world, also for my sins. I have forgiveness for the cruelties I have done. But then I have asked God's grace for an opportunity that I could ask one of my very victims forgiveness, and Fräulein ten Boom wants him here forgiven. Will you forgive me? And I could not. I remembered the suffering of my dying sister through him, but I was not able. I could not. I could only hate him.

Corrie Ten Boom: 16:12

And then I took one of these beautiful texts, one of these boundless resources Romans 5:5,. The love God is shed and brought into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who is given to us. And I said thank you, jesus, that you have brought into my heart God's love through the Holy Spirit who is given to me. And thank you, father, that your love is stronger than my hatred and unforgiveness. That same moment I was free and I could say brother, give me your hand. And I shook hands with him and it was as if I felt God's love stream through my arms. You never touch so the ocean of God's love. As that, you forgive your enemies.

Josiah: 17:07

A lot. A lot comes to my mind from that story. I think the biggest takeaway is one how much she had to overcome in order to extend the forgiveness. I think it does help for us to put into perspective, although we shouldn't feel shameful for having smaller things to forgive. Of course, it is inspiring to see someone who had so much to forgive was able to do so, but I like the way she narrates the fact that she didn't have to do it in her own strength. She had the sense that God wanted to extend, for God is the one who wanted to extend forgiveness and it didn't need her to try to perfect this process first. There was a, there was a sense of like, like I want to offer forgiveness and as she does that, she's able to experience a sense of God's love that she would not be able to without the act of forgiveness.

Mac: 17:58

Yeah, it's. It's such a powerful. I've never heard um her narrate it.

Mac: 18:03

I've heard many people share um sort of the details of that moment or summarize that story, but I've never heard her narrate it, so it was really powerful for me to actually hear her tell it. And then I think and we'll get into this more but she really epitomizes the central practice that we're gonna end with today, which is when you're sort of stuck in that place of unforgiveness, the pivot is to sort of look to Jesus and allow him to give you strength. You don't have on your own to be able to extend forgiveness to others, right, yeah, and I think just like what would have happened, like she couldn't muscle that up, you know what? I mean, she did two things in that moment she looks to, she looks to God and realizes and like, realizes and re-receives his forgiveness, like that's her anchor point. And then she receives from him the power and strength and courage to do it. And we're going to see as this episode progresses that like that is essential for us to break out of that cycle of any enemy making which she was stuck in.

Katie: 19:12

Right, yeah, and who would blame her? I mean, I hear her going. Man, she's standing there going. Okay, on the one hand, I want to forgive this person, but I can't. I can't. All I had was hate for him and it's like, yes, I don't know how you would have anything but hate just given, I mean just being a human being and watching him do the things that he did and the way that he abused her and all of that. But then to hear her narrate the transition of just surrendering to God's grace and then him acting in her in that moment, is really cool.

Mac: 19:43

Yeah, and it captures also, I think, just the quintessential sort of litmus test of a growing disciple of Jesus's love, and the furthest that gets stretched is loving your enemy, which is sort of like the apex of Jesus's teachings in the Sermon on the Mount. It's not just loving those who love you, it's actually learning to love like the concentration camp prison guard who mistreated you and killed your sister. Yeah, it's crazy.

Josiah: 20:11

I just like I don't know, it's kind of hitting me In enemy love. There's something in it for us Like I don't want to say that from like self-absorbed sort of what's in it for me type of perspective. But she narrates the idea for us to love our enemies is like okay, god, you asked me to, I guess I will. As opposed to, I have a greater capacity to experience God's love when I choose to forgive my enemies.

Adam: 20:37

And.

Josiah: 20:37

I think that's much. It's a much more inspiring vision than just I'm supposed to.

Adam: 20:45

Yes.

Josiah: 20:45

Like we get focused on a verse that says Jesus said God won't, won't, won't forgive you if you don't forgive others, as a um, but I think there's like this okay, rather than seeing it as transactional, we actually see that like Jesus is warning us, and I know we're going to get more into it, um, but Jesus is warning us at the warning us, and I know we're going to get more into it. Um, but Jesus is warning us at the like it's, it's to our benefit as well as the opposite, to our detriment, when we choose to not forgive.

Mac: 21:13

Yeah, it wasn't just transactional. It wasn't a transactional moment to use your vernacular, but it was a transformational moment for both of them, and that's what makes it powerful. Yes, well, here's what I'm hoping we can do today. I think it is going to be a bit to bite off Like it's going to be a big we're eating a steak. This might be like borderline choking hazard, you know, but I'm hoping we can look at the teachings of Jesus pertaining to forgiveness, like what did Jesus say about forgiveness? And then I would love to look at how Jesus practiced and embodied forgiveness in the way he interacted with others. And then let's close by coming back to this conversation. What a powerful illustration of someone acting on the teachings of Jesus to get free, or break free from that cycle of enemy making. I want to end with kind of giving some concrete sort of nitty gritty details on how we can begin to do that. I think we can accomplish all that, guys.

Mac: 22:08

All right, all right, well, okay, let's just jump in. What did Jesus? Let's do a quick overview. This isn't everything, but what are some of the main things Jesus said or taught about forgiveness?

Katie: 22:19

Yeah, I think, and this kind of ties into the first episode that we talked about. We talked about how forgiveness is acknowledging what actually happened and I think, and this kind of ties into the first episode that we talked about. We talked about how forgiveness is acknowledging what actually happened and I think Jesus did that. I think he taught us to confront the wrong done and then forgive it.

Katie: 22:33

So in Luke 17, he says if your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them, and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying I repent, you must forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying I repent, you must forgive them. So when I first look at that verse, the word that sticks out to me is the word rebuke. It says if a brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them. But the word rebuke can for me kind of carry sort of a harsher condemnation, and so I looked into what the word rebuke here stems from, and it comes from the Greek word epitomeo. You'd be able to say that better than.

Mac: 23:12

I could, well, I could. But here's the thing when you're pronouncing a Greek word, or a Hebrew word for that matter, is you just say it with confidence. That's all that, really matters.

Josiah: 23:22

Okay, so just let's try that again Just rip it out, yep. Well, why don't you say it first? They'll be like oh, that's how you say it, Just say it yeah.

Mac: 23:29

You just got to pretend like you know what you're talking about.

Katie: 23:31

Well, that feels disingenuous to me.

Adam: 23:42

I don't like that, but I don't know.

Katie: 23:44

Anyways, the Greek word, which I'm not going to pronounce, means to warn or correct someone in a loving and direct way, so it's not really carrying the connotation of like an angry reprimand, but rather it's a loving correction that's meant to lead to reconciling whatever the wrong is.

Katie: 24:02

And I think this one is really important because I know sometimes we can fall into the idea or at least I can fall into the idea that Jesus was kind of like a nice guy who didn't really ruffle feathers, I know, for a while I probably believed that like, oh, he's just nice and says things that make people feel good and heals people or whatever. But in fact Jesus said hard things to people all the time, and he did so not to shame them, but rather out of love for them. And the reason he did this is because Jesus' love was always rooted in truth, and so loving people in a Jesus way means telling them the truth about any wrong that they might have caused us, and I think that's what he's doing in this verse. He's saying if someone sins against you, speak honestly about what happened. He's not saying brush it over and don't acknowledge it.

Mac: 24:51

Yeah, I mean, and God doesn't do that with us. I know I think we've said this in previous episodes, but like when God deals with our sin and wrongdoing, he doesn't pretend like it didn't happen. He sort of names the full truth about it and then acts in a way that provides forgiveness. Nt Wright Nicholas Thomas Wright, once said this I don't want to know his names.

Josiah: 25:15

I like NT better. Now that I know his name.

Katie: 25:17

Well, he goes by Tom Wright actually, but when he started publishing books in the US, they made him go by NT Wright.

Josiah: 25:23

Well, either way, I don't want to know the real name, all right, well, nicholas.

Mac: 25:25

Thomas Wright once said Forgiveness is not the same as tolerance. It must confront the actual wrong that has been done. True forgiveness is costly and demands that we name evil for what it is rather than ignoring or minimizing it, and I think that it often helps to start with the small things rather than the big things.

Mac: 25:51

Uh, so, going back to San Antonio for a moment, um, there was, we were presenting to kind of a group of like 30 people, so this little training we were doing, and, um, at one point my coworker, jim, interrupted Tricia, my other coworker, and I noticed it because I know that that's like a sort of a pattern in their relationship that they've had to work really hard on, having worked together for 25 years, and I noticed it. And once that session ended afterwards, jim approached her and named it and they like talked about it and acknowledged it and then that kind of carried over into the next you know session. That became an illustration of like how we deal with things and I thought, man, what a great example of like. It would be so easy to sort of like not attend to that, just kind of like ignore it, minimize it, whatever.

Mac: 26:48

But it seems to me that getting those reps with the really small things actually builds our capacity to forgive. When it comes to the bigger things, learning how to say when something goes wrong, hey, that hurt, and here's why, when it'd be so much easier not to, is a way that actually opens up and deepens our capacity to forgive. Does that make sense? And I think we're honestly accustomed in the church to minimize or pretend or sweep it under the rug in the name of forgiveness, when in fact we're not being honest about what actually happened. Does that make sense? And I mean with the small things, like the little, like your?

Katie: 27:25

spouse, for example, gets your sink all wet.

Mac: 27:27

Yeah, like saying hey, this is that. This is the impact it has on me. Now, my the, my sink is wet. Yeah, my shirt's all wet. My shirt's all wet. Hey, like when you picked a fight with me just because you needed some stimulus, like this is what that? Does to me.

Adam: 27:44

Right.

Mac: 27:47

Yeah, yeah, so I'm not saying it leads to like policing every wrongdoing with this harsh rebuke. I mean, Katie, you did a great job with that Greek word saying that's really not. That's not what's happening here. But I do want to say I think when we learn how to do this with smaller things, it gives us the confidence to be able to do it with bigger things.

Mac: 28:05

Yeah, that's a good word. Another thing, when it comes to Jesus's teachings. Jesus taught us to forgive without limits. I mentioned this passage before because it comes right before the parable of the unmerciful servant. But what sets that up is Peter comes to Jesus and asks Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times, and of course Peter thinks he's being really generous there and Jesus responds I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times.

Mac: 28:37

Many scholars believe the backdrop to Jesus's response. There is a story in Genesis of Lamech, and I don't expect anybody to know who that is. So, quick summary Lamech was a descendant of Cain and Cain, remember, was the one who killed his brother first, one who commits murder in the Bible. And of course the sins of fathers are passed on to sons, and so Lamech ends up boasting about the fact that he killed a man for merely wounding him. So someone else like hit him and he ends up killing him in response and ends up boasting about it, and at one point he says if Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is 77 fold.

Mac: 29:21

Okay, so Lamech is taking pride in his escalation of violence and unchecked retaliation, and this is the backdrop with this interaction between Peter and Jesus. So when Peter asked Jesus if he should forgive up to seven times, he thinks he's being generous. But Jesus responds by extending forgiveness to the furthest possible extent, forgiveness without limits. And he does this by reversing. He's reversing Lamech's escalating violence and revenge with escalating grace and unlimited forgiveness. Okay, so Jesus is undoing this pattern of revenge, undoing it. Whereas Lamech captures the fallen way of dealing with wrongs by taking revenge without limit, jesus points to the kingdom way by forgiving without limit. He's completely reversing the entire retaliation mindset. Isn't that awesome.

Josiah: 30:17

That's really cool.

Mac: 30:18

Instead of multiplying wrath, we're to multiply mercy. I can see your wheels spinning, both of you, so maybe let me in just a little bit.

Katie: 30:29

Yeah, I was just thinking this is what Jesus does. He takes situations and flips them on their head. It's like a very subversive is that the right word? Yeah, kind of takes this idea that we would have and then just completely flips it in a way that I would not think of doing on my own, and then he does I'm like, oh, that's genius. Yeah.

Josiah: 30:48

Yeah, I think it. I remember hearing the scriptures like this when I was a kid and I remember poking fun, being like okay, well, if someone said sorry, if I can forgive them up to like the one way it's translated is like 70 times seven, like 490 times. So, like, if I did that enough then.

Katie: 31:09

You would reach the limit.

Josiah: 31:09

I'd reach the limit. Oh funny and just kind of having fun with it.

Mac: 31:14

But we take Jesus literally just in this church.

Katie: 31:17

That was the 491st time.

Josiah: 31:18

You're done yeah yeah, done, cut off. Ah, reached my limit, but it's really cool to see that Jesus is using the callback to that old story to not reference a certain amount of times. He's specifically answering that there is no room for revenge in the kingdom of God. Yeah, I'm answering that and I'm calling back to that so that you know that there is actually no wiggle room. There is no room for you here to hold on grudges and to harbor hatred in your heart.

Mac: 31:57

Right, what? How many times do I have to forgive? Well, you're never done. And maybe let me take this one step further. He's saying, in fact, the entire retaliation cycle needs to be put to an end and reversed. It's, it's brilliant. And of course, this obviously picks up on what we were talking about earlier, which is this command to enemy love. And of course, this obviously picks up on what we were talking about earlier, which is this command to enemy love Again as you were saying, Katie, that he completely reverses things, turns things upside down.

Mac: 32:24

Well, that's it. That we're called to love our enemies was a great reversal.

Josiah: 32:31

Yeah, yeah. Another thing that Jesus teaches is he warns that God's forgiveness is conditional on our forgiveness towards others. Matthew 6, 12 is within the Lord's Prayer. He's saying that you're to pray that he would forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. In Mark 11 he's saying that when you stand praying, if you hold anything against someone, forgive them so that your Father in Heaven may forgive you your sins. Also, from the Beatitudes he's blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. So there seems to be this conditional quality, but I think that, as we unpack this, and even as I was thinking about the story we were referencing earlier, is yeah, maybe there is a conditional quality to it, but I think Jesus is exposing the reality of how it works.

Mac: 33:31

Yeah, okay, let me just name it. I imagine some people might be listening and all of a sudden they're noticing some hives on their forearms because it sounds like works, righteousness, like hey, the way I get forgiven, the way I earn God's forgiveness, is by forgiving others.

Katie: 33:46

Is that what you're saying? So all of a sudden I think of that at a time when I didn't forgive someone and whoops, does that mean I won't be forgiven?

Mac: 33:50

Yeah, oh, I lost my salvation. I'm going to have to so flesh it out.

Josiah: 33:55

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily about salvation as much as it is. Our ability to experience God's forgiveness is completely dependent on our ability to forgive others, and the measure we use to forgive others is how much we'll be able to experience. So I think of it like if I am, if I'm thinking of, of I have like a pipe that water flows through. If I take the stop valve and I turn it off, the water is not going to flow through. So not only is water not going to get to the other side of the pipe, but the pipe itself is not going to have any water at a certain point. The pipe, but the pipe itself is not going to have any water at a certain point. So I guess I see it as you stop the flow of forgiveness towards other people, that limits you being forgiven from your heavenly father.

Mac: 34:49

And you're on the other side of that stop valve.

Josiah: 34:52

Yeah, cause you stop it from flowing into you as well. I mean, I can't flow through you, yeah.

Mac: 34:58

I mean think about the story.

Josiah: 35:00

I mean, and I know it is her story, but she experiences this immense and I remember in the book she said it felt like there was a light.

Mac: 35:11

You're talking about Corrie Ten Boom right now.

Josiah: 35:13

Yes, sorry, she said it felt like there was electricity flowing through my arm.

Mac: 35:17

Yeah, in other words, she felt like the valve was partially shut or shut and she had to ask God to crank that valve open, and it did, and then it flowed into her through her into this prison guard and she gets to experience forgiveness, as she's forgiving someone else, right?

Mac: 35:31

Yeah, I think that's a helpful clarifier. Perhaps we could put it this way that if we refuse to to forgive, it indicates that we have not fully grasped god's mercy toward us. And so jesus isn't providing like a soteriological framework of how we're saved. He's just describing. This is how it works. Yeah, um, maybe a quote for you from my friend, nicholas right? Um, failure to forgive one another Isn't a matter of failing to live up to a new bit of moral teaching, it is cutting off the branch you're sitting on. Should I read again Failure to forgive one another Isn't a matter of failing to live up to a new bit of moral teaching. It is cutting off the branch you're sitting on. The only reason for being kingdom people, for being forgiven at all, is that we are to turn into forgiving people. If we don't live forgiveness, we are denying the very basis of our new existence. Nicholas.

Josiah: 36:39

Wright, very basis of our new existence. Nicholas right, I think that this also exposes the way that we have been taught in some circles spiritually to view God's forgiveness towards us Like God's intention with sending Jesus to die on the cross was just to save me and him, and I think that this points out that Jesus is trying to say that just as much as he wants to be reconciled to us, he wants us to be reconciled towards others, and there is a certain level of that truth that is baked into our reality as people that if we aren't willing to live in peace with people, that there is a certain level of peace we will not experience in ourselves.

Mac: 37:23

Yes, yes, and because you're on it, dude, the gospel is not just about a vertical reconciliation with God. It is that, but it also is a horizontal reconciliation, and so, to the degree that we're unwilling to forgive someone else, we're actually denying the gospel of reconciliation, and what's more is, we're actually refusing to forgive something that God has forgiven.

Katie: 37:47

We're making ourselves more powerful.

Mac: 37:49

Right. And going back to that story with Corrie Ten Boom, the prison guard has said I've become a follower of Jesus and received his forgiveness Right, so God has. He's saying God a follower of Jesus and received his forgiveness Right, so God has. He's saying God has-.

Josiah: 38:03

He's made him that for her yes.

Mac: 38:05

And so what I'm saying is yes, and when we refuse to forgive someone else, we're actually at cross purposes with God. We're refusing to cooperate with the forgiveness God is extending to that person.

Katie: 38:16

Yeah, what was the very last line of the NT Wright quote? You're denying the basis.

Mac: 38:21

You're denying the very basis of our own new existence, nicholas Thomas.

Katie: 38:27

Wright. Yeah, if you're living into this new life with God, forgiveness is the centerpiece of that life with God. So if you're refusing to extend forgiveness, you're actually denying the whole basis of your life in the kingdom.

Mac: 38:41

You're denying the basis for your own existence, you're denying the gospel because you're refusing to cooperate in the reconciliation of all things and you're refusing to forgive something that God has already chosen to forgive in Christ.

Josiah: 38:54

Yeah, that's good, I'm the vine, you're the branches. I'm the vine. You're the branches, I'm the branch. Forgiveness is actually a way that we can extend the branch outward and we deny that forgiveness towards others. The only reason we're grafted in is because God chose to.

Katie: 39:12

Right, yeah, that's a good one. Another one is Jesus warns us about our refusal to forgive others. So in Matthew 18, Mac, you told this parable a couple episodes back. It's the parable of the unmerciful servant. There's a king who wants to settle accounts. Long story short, there's a man who owes him like a ton of money 10,000 talents you explained what that was. And the man who owes the king begs him to forgive him because he says, be patient with me, I can't pay it back. And the king ends up extending forgiveness. But then the servant who had the debt forgiven turns around and finds someone else who owes him a much smaller amount of money. And that man asked for forgiveness and the servant refuses to forgive. And that man asked for forgiveness and the servant refuses to forgive.

Katie: 40:04

And Jesus has some pretty harsh words in that story for the man who received mercy and then turns around and refuses to extend mercy and even the scope he uses. Right, Like you were forgiven this huge debt that's worth 20 or 10,000 talents, but then you refuse to forgive a much smaller debt, like a debt that's worth 20 or 10,000 talents, but then you refuse to forgive a much smaller debt, like a debt that's minuscule. In light of that, we look at that and go, wow, how hypocritical. What is he thinking? But I think Jesus is going this is us. When we refuse to forgive, what we're doing is we're failing to grasp the magnitude of what we have been forgiven of, and we're the servant who's turning around and going yeah, I've been forgiven, but you don't deserve what I have.

Mac: 40:46

Oh yeah, and you guys? I mean this is common in each one of our own lives, Like we all struggle, but for some reason it's just super common in the church. I don't. It's frustrating. Can I just have a moment of frustration? I'm so excited, Dear church people. I've just encountered one too many people who had, like some messy past right and then at some point were brought to their knees, receive Jesus as their pledge, their allegiance to Jesus, and receive his forgiveness, and then they start to experience transformation. You fast forward 15, 20 years and they're the most judgmental people towards those whose lives are a mess. It's just the older brother syndrome in the parable of the two lost sons. It's like we've somehow some way, it's like the longer we've been following Jesus, instead of growing in our awareness, our acute awareness of his mercy and grace in our lives, which should only deepen in time of following him.

Mac: 41:41

It's like we become, I don't know like we lose sight of that, and then we become more judgmental and honestly hypocritical towards those who aren't there yet.

Adam: 41:53

Yep.

Mac: 41:54

And I just don't like that. I don't like that in me, I don't like that when I see it. It doesn't look good on us, right. Yeah, it's like mom jeans.

Katie: 42:04

Hey, no, hey no, I don't think they look great mom jeans.

Mac: 42:08

Like Josie knows this, she wears skinny jeans because that's what I like her to wear.

Josiah: 42:16

Okay, what else does she wear?

Katie: 42:18

that you like. I can't wait to see where Josiah is going to take this tangent. No, I'm not. I'm just going to sit back and watch.

Josiah: 42:24

No, before that I was naming that.

Mac: 42:27

The neuro connectors in my brain where those don't look good and I thought what doesn't look good?

Adam: 42:32

And I'm like oh, mom jeans, that's why Josie doesn't wear mom jeans, because she doesn't think they look good.

Mac: 42:35

That's all that happened there.

Josiah: 42:37

I was going to name the importance of humbling ourselves continually before we have to be humbled Like I don't know. I always reference. There's a passage where Paul is writing to a church I'm sorry, I don't know which one it is, but he calls him, he refers to himself as the chief of sinners, himself as the chief of sinners, and at that point he, if anybody, could have felt like he has graduated from that label right, like anybody that you can read about in the Bible.

Josiah: 43:11

There's anybody who could have like had accolades. He chose to continue, like he referenced himself as that, not because he's not forgiven, but a continual reminder that he is that and he is grateful for anything. So I don't know. I just if we don't humble ourselves, we start to get this view that we've graduated beyond the simple things and we are never to graduate from that.

Mac: 43:41

I see Paul's statement referring to himself as a chief of sinners as the posture Jesus invites all of us to take when he talks about, like the speck in someone else's eye and the plank in your own eye you know, so yeah, Adam, you can edit out the mom jeans comment if you want.

Katie: 44:00

but it's funny, leave it in um.

Mac: 44:03

I mentioned this parable, but it's one of the most well-known parables that jesus um taught and it's it's for good reason. It's one of my favorites. But it's the parable of the prodigal father, and labeling the parable that way is on purpose the prodigal father versus the prodigal son. It's intentional, at least for me. It's due to the influence of a guy named Tim Keller. The word prodigal does not mean wayward or lost, as most people think. It actually comes from a Latin word which means recklessly extravagant, lavish in giving spending resources freely and abundantly. And you all know the parable the younger son demands his inheritance, which is really rude and basically wishing his father was dead, and then he goes off and squanders all of it and so on. But the point of the story isn't the son's mistakes. It isn't. The point of the story is the father's grace and forgiveness. While the younger son was prodigal with how he wasted the father's inheritance, the father is even more prodigal with his overwhelming forgiveness and grace and love towards his son.

Mac: 45:17

That Jesus tells this parable in response to the religious leaders, much like the churchgoers I was just describing, who are grumbling against Jesus for hanging out with sinners and tax collectors. So he's saying here's why I'm being gracious towards these people that you're looking down upon, because I'm manifesting the prodigal love of the Father. And then he swoops in and tells the story of how the older son responds, in a way of holding up a mirror to the religious leaders of his day, to go yeah, and that's you. So my point is is kind of on this section of what did Jesus say is that he told some pretty amazing parables about the nature of forgiveness, and perhaps one that's really worth reflecting on is the parable of the prodigal son. It's beautiful. You'll never mine it completely. Every time I return to it there's more that hits me or impacts me. It's like a diamond. You can keep turning it and seeing different things.

Josiah: 46:11

Yeah, so Jesus taught a lot on the subject of forgiveness, and teaches us to continue doing it. What are some of the ways that Jesus practiced forgiveness in his own life? What did that look like for him to practice what he preached?

Katie: 46:27

Yeah, and not just to talk about it but actually to love it. Yeah. One story that comes to mind for me is the woman caught in adultery in John eight. In that story you have a group of Pharisees and religious teachers bring to Jesus a woman who was caught in the act of adultery and they say the law says to stone her. So what do you say? And what was happening here? They didn't. I don't think they were genuinely seeking Jesus' advice. I think they were trying to trap him. They knew that his heart would be bent towards mercy but that the law required death, and so they were trying to put him in a catch-22. But Jesus says okay, go ahead, go ahead, and the one who has never sinned throw the first stone. And then, one by one, they walk away. And then Jesus looks at the woman and says did no one condemn you? Then neither do I Go and sin no more.

Katie: 47:14

And I like the story because it demonstrates Jesus's approach towards forgiveness, I think in a couple ways.

Katie: 47:19

For one, it just shows how he demonstrates mercy over judgment.

Katie: 47:23

He would have had every right to condemn her or affirm the punishment that she deserves, but instead he shifts the focus from the woman's sin, to the imperfections of the accusers and the hypocrisy, in a sense, which again, is just brilliant, if you ask me.

Katie: 47:41

In doing so, I think he extends mercy to her and he again exposes the motives of those who are accusing her and trying to trap him. So another example of Jesus just kind of flipping what's happening on its head, but at the same time he doesn't deny her sin or ignore the law's demands for justice. In a sense, rather, he encourages her to turn away from her sin. He says go and sin no more, and he shows that forgiveness is not a license to continue sinful behavior, but rather it's a call to deeper transformation. And I just think that's a lesson for us in what true forgiveness looks like. It's not a get out of jail free card, it's not extending permission to someone to keep doing the thing that caused you harm, but rather it's extend mercy in a situation that would otherwise call for judgment, and in so doing we invite the person into deeper transformation.

Mac: 48:28

You know one thing that stands out to me as you were sharing that story. I mean, obviously she's a pawn that's being used to trap Jesus right. There's other pieces at play. There's other pieces at play, there's other moving pieces, but it strikes me as significant that Jesus absorbs increased wrath from the religious leaders in extending her forgiveness and extending forgiveness to those whose lives are a mess. If there's not some increased animosity we might have to absorb in the name of offering or extending forgiveness, to others, especially since we live in a Lamech world.

Mac: 49:15

A Lamech world meaning a world that runs on revenge and retaliation, and you know tit for tat, the biggest thing that stands out.

Josiah: 49:27

As you're just sharing this story, I've heard this a thousand times she did not ask Jesus for forgiveness, he just gave it to her. I don't know. He just gave it to her, I don't know. I think sometimes in our church communities we like to use that repentance as the mark of which, if someone can hang around or be a part of our community if they're struggling with sin, but they're repentant then they can stay here. If they're not, then maybe they shouldn't be, Jesus extended forgiveness when people didn't even ask.

Mac: 50:07

Yep, and here's what's interesting is it fits what we talked about in our I don't know first or second episode on this whole thing, that forgiveness isn't contingent upon the other person. It's something that we do, so it shouldn't surprise us that God has already offered forgiveness. The question is whether we want to receive it and experience the transformational joy that comes with it.

Katie: 50:27

Yeah, what sticks out to me as I was reading it is the Pharisees' call for justice, which is a value of God. Right, god is a just God and he is a God of justice. So they're appealing to Jesus' sense of justice. It's not like he turned a blind eye and said a God of justice. So they're appealing to Jesus' sense of justice. It's not like he turned a blind eye and said, no, everyone can do whatever they want, Just ignore the law that Moses gave you. And I think that bubbles up in me too, like when I have to forgive someone. It's like but justice, but justice requires right, like this happened, and so they should have to pay. And it's really interesting to me how he doesn't deny the justice in the situation he doesn't. He acknowledges it. Yes, this should be the punishment, but yet he chooses to extend forgiveness and mercy. It's like these two things wouldn't otherwise be doing. That ultimately enables you to live free from sin. It's not your ability to make it for a while or prove that you want it.

Mac: 51:42

It's like God forgiving us ahead of time is what empowers us to live a life, and obviously that entire story is saturated with hypocrisy. The two biggest layers of hypocrisy are those who have stones in their hands, not realizing their own sinfulness. So Jesus holds up a mirror that way. But obviously the other layer of hypocrisy and insincerity is where was the man who was also caught in this adulterous relationship? He's nowhere to be found, and so I've said before, this isn't a story of a woman caught in adultery. It's religious leaders caught in their hypocrisy, and Jesus was just so smart he knew how to hold up a mirror in real time. Here's another story where Jesus does something very similar. It's in Luke, chapter seven. It's a brilliant story.

Mac: 52:28

Jesus receives an invitation to dine at a Pharisee's house. His name is Simon and so he's there and they would. Often the way they ate was different than the way we ate. They'd often recline at a table and this woman walks in and she anoints Jesus's feet with an alabaster jar of perfume and is crying and wiping his feet with her hair and so on, and Simon the Pharisee looks at well, really, both of them with judgment. He judges Jesus because he's like whoa. If Jesus were really a prophet, he wouldn't be letting this happen. And then he's judging the woman because of her reputation. And Jesus in real time, so brilliant.

Mac: 53:12

He tells a parable, like just think about this. You're in this hot seat and Jesus is so smart. He tells a parable in the moment about two people who have been forgiven different amounts. One person was forgiven a ton. The other person was forgiven way less, kind of like the unmerciful servant, but he goes. So which one, once they've been forgiven, would love more?

Mac: 53:31

And Simon basically, is forced to answer well, obviously, the person who was forgiven more. He goes you're right, this woman, and this woman loves me more. And then goes in to, kind of holds up this mirror and is like, well, she's wiping my feet, even though you haven't even provided water to wash my feet. She's giving me all like. He basically like uses her as an example of love toward him, in a way that Simon isn't to invite him to reckon with where he's at. It's just brilliant. And again, if we're going to learn how to navigate the world, it's not just that we should receive God's forgiveness and deepen our love for God, it's also that I think we need to be able to do this kind of work that we see Jesus doing, namely interacting with other people in a way that affirms the forgiveness people have received and reconciliation with God, no matter what their pastor background is, and be able to hold up a mirror to those who snicker about it yeah.

Mac: 54:32

One scholar put it this way. He said the scandal of grace is that those who have been forgiven much are not simply recipients of love. They become agents of it. True forgiveness is never just absorbed. It transforms us into people who love extravagantly. As you receive God's love, you become an agent of it, just like your pipe conduit metaphor.

Katie: 54:51

What sticks out to me from that story is that Simon probably had just as much to be forgiven of oh yes, he just didn't realize it right, Like in the moment, it's just like the Pharisees and the woman caught in adultery, like their hypocrisy is just as much of a sin, if not more. We just fail to realize that we're on the same level yeah right as other people.

Josiah: 55:12

Right yeah, another story that comes to mind is Jesus washing Judas' feet.

Mac: 55:21

Gosh, that would have been so awkward, well you know, having your feet washed Well no, I mean like, if you're. Judas, and you know what you're about to do, like holy smokes.

Josiah: 55:30

Yeah, like, like I would say, like most of us are are familiar with Judas. He's the one who betrayed Jesus.

Katie: 55:36

It'd be like you're on a date with someone and you know you're going to break up with them and they're like offering to pay the bill.

Mac: 55:43

Has this ever happened to you?

Katie: 55:44

No, I just made me think of it. It's kind of the same right. Yeah, you're talking about being awkward. Yeah, no, it's true.

Josiah: 55:51

Yeah, there's an awkwardness, but the you know below the surface level, fun of it. This was his last supper he was having with his disciples. It's very intimate. He's imparting these things, he's establishing the Lord's Supper which we still practice today, and he knows Judas is going to betray him and probably already has been doing things up until that point to do so, and washes his feet along with all the other disciples.

Mac: 56:28

Yeah, which was more than just an act of love. So maybe to just be theological for a moment yes, please do. Yeah, well, that moment where he's washing feet is a foreshadow to what's going to, what's going about to happen on the cross. So Jesus sort of removes his garments and washes feet, and on the cross he's stripped of his garments and washes humanity of their sin. So it's more than just like a kind gesture towards Judas. It's a proclamation of Judas's forgiveness, the forgiveness that's provided through the cross.

Josiah: 57:01

I didn't know that, yeah, essentially he's sort of forgiving him in advance in some ways. I mean, even though I'm sure a lot of the betrayal had already happened up to that point, there's a sense of not withholding any bit of the forgiveness he's offering all of humanity, even from the one who is betraying him. It's really beautiful. Yep, he's forgiving him while he's in the act of doing the betrayal, probably also worth noting that I don't think any of us would be able to do it.

Katie: 57:35

So in my I'm just thinking about this I said my example wrong. So in my example it's actually you know the other person's about to break up with you and you're writing the bill Like as they're, they're like getting up to leave. You're like oh, I'll like.

Josiah: 57:47

I'll take it. Yeah, you know.

Mac: 57:49

That's right, instead of you being the recipient of the you know. Oyster's. Rockefeller this is you going? Yeah, this isn't going to work out and I'm going to pay for it. Yeah, and in fact, they're the one who doesn't want to continue, even though you might, mm-hmm, yep, we should keep going with this.

Josiah: 58:05

No, I'm just kidding.

Katie: 58:06

And they cheated on you yeah yeah, yeah, oh geez.

Katie: 58:11

Okay, maybe another one is with Peter and his denial. So before Jesus' death on the cross, peter denies him three times. Jesus's death on the cross. Peter denies him three times yes. He's asked if he knows Jesus and he says no, and Jesus actually predicted this was going to happen. But then, after Jesus's death and resurrection, they have a moment where Jesus appears to Peter and the other disciples and he asks Peter, do you love me? He asks him three times, one for each time. Peter denied him yes. Peter answers yes, I love you. And Jesus replies then feed my sheep.

Katie: 58:43

So, looking at this story, I think we can imagine like the guilt and the shame that Peter felt he had been incredibly loyal to Jesus. He tells him I would never deny you. But then he does and rather than shaming him or saying like I told you so, jesus instead offers him an opportunity to reaffirm his love for Jesus and to me this seems like an act of restoration, like he's restoring Peter to that position and it's showing Jesus' heart to mend the relationship and Peter's failure, rather than becoming an end, becomes an opportunity for a fresh start. So that's just a beautiful picture to me.

Mac: 59:23

Yeah, it also stands out to me that the last two examples that have been shared Judas and now Peter both of them were disciples All right. So again, forgiveness isn't just a one-time thing. Like, you pray a prayer and now you're good to go.

Mac: 59:38

It's like this was after they made the decision to follow Jesus and they were still messing up. They weren't perfect and needed to receive forgiveness on an ongoing basis. So again, speaking to that tendency to become like disconnected from our need for God's mercy and then look on other people with judgment and self-righteousness, I want to continue to press into. This is a like. Receiving God's forgiveness is a daily thing, not a once-a-lifetime thing.

Josiah: 1:00:05

Yeah, another story is with the paralytic man that was lowered in through the roof. If you remember this story, people brought to Jesus someone that they wanted healed and he was trapped in a house full of people. So they broke open a spot on the roof and lowered him down. And Jesus, before offering the healing of his body, he first pronounces that his sins are forgiven, and of course everybody gets in a tizzy because it's like who can do that? You know, who do you think you are?

Katie: 1:00:48

God.

Josiah: 1:00:49

Yeah, god, actually yeah, but he, yeah. So he says well, so that you know that the Son of man has the power to forgive sins, take up your mat and walk and, like this guy, number one did not ask to be forgiven, but Jesus heals his body and forgives him of his wrongs, all in one sort of fell swoop. In one sort of fell swoop and I think it's a, you know, I think it's a it it showcases that Jesus, or God, sees our sins as something we have committed, but does not let that stand in the way. I think. I think God sees the, the force of sin, acting on all of us and is able to forgive us in spite of the things that we've done wrong, because he understands that sin is something that has impacted all of us. In this example, it impacted this man's body. This man's body was broken and he healed the body and also the soul all at the same time.

Mac: 1:02:00

Yeah, I think it gives us a picture that salvation is holistic. Yes, right, I think that's what you're getting at. And, man, if you ever want to talk about a mic drop moment in the gospels, that feels like one of them where.

Josiah: 1:02:12

Jesus is like like who are you the power to forgive sins? He's like well, watch this. Yeah, that would be cool.

Katie: 1:02:18

He's like well watch this.

Mac: 1:02:19

Yeah, that would be cool, I think, if you were to go. Okay, pick one example that captures Jesus' teachings and embodiment the way Jesus practiced forgiveness. It's the story of Jesus hanging on the cross in Luke, chapter 22.

Mac: 1:02:38

And he prays to the very people who had just driven nails into his wrists and his feet Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do so here he's being unjustly executed, even though he's completely innocent, and is forgiving the very people who have put him on the cross, which includes you and me, knowing that we fully don't understand the weight of our sin and our wrongdoing. And of course, I just want to make sure everybody knows this. We've been anchoring it in Jesus, but most of the New Testament, the rest of the New Testament, tends to look at Jesus and then apply it to us. So there's numerous passages in Paul's letters, for instance, that, and in Peter, that take a look at Jesus and then tell us and we're to forgive like that. So just a couple of quick examples. Ephesians 4 says be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ, god forgave you. Colossians 3, verse 13, bear with each other and forgive one another. If any of you has a grievance against someone, here it is forgive as the Lord forgave you. So you know, and we could keep going. In 1 Peter it talks about how love covers a multitude of sins. And in 2 Corinthians 5, paul talks about how we're ambassadors of reconciliation and commands us to be part of that work. So hopefully this gives us like a foundation to go. Here's what Jesus said. Here's what he did when it came to embodying forgiveness Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. The entire New Testament calls us to embody that forgiveness.

Mac: 1:04:17

Let's now talk about that cycle of enemy making and how to concretely and specifically, when you find yourself swept up in the current of the flywheel of unforgiveness, how do you break out of that, like we see Corrie Ten Boom doing, to then receive God's mercy and channel that towards other people? What does that actually look like for you? Have you done this in your life? I kind of going back to something I said earlier, I tend to think it starts and we gain repetitions with super small things. So even thinking about, for example, someone cutting you off in traffic, right, how easy is it to be like you bleepity, bleep, you know Like. I see a lot of people the times when I accidentally do something I'm not supposed to in traffic. It's crazy how quick people get mad. It's right. There's an example of how quick someone has jumped into that cycle of enemy making where they're dehumanizing you and giving you the finger in in a not so subtle form of retaliation and revenge, right? So that's what I'm talking about. It's like even in that moment we can go. Okay, have I ever cut someone off in traffic before? Of course I have. I'm going to. I'm going to give them grace in this moment.

Mac: 1:05:33

You know what?

Mac: 1:05:33

I mean, or even our last episode. I shared an example, josiah, where and Katie, where I blew it in a staff meeting you got really big and I I had to work really hard not to get you know off track and start ruminating in a way that hardened my heart towards you, Josiah, and I'm glad I didn't, because that would have gotten in the way of us being being friends. So you get what I'm saying Like, are there any examples where you go in my marriage or with my kids? Oh my gosh, with my kids. I can think of examples where I'm like what a little nutcracker.

Adam: 1:06:07

Like you know what I mean.

Mac: 1:06:08

And all of a sudden, like your perspective, your heart gets hard. Your perspective of them starts to be less than loving, and you know what I mean. Yeah, what's the key to getting out of those moments?

Josiah: 1:06:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I, yeah, I think. For kids there's definitely one, I think, with my, my eldest, she's 13. Um, and she's 13. If you've ever met a 13 year old, oh yeah, you know what I'm saying.

Josiah: 1:06:33

Um, uh, I don't always do this, but it is good for me to stop and take a step back and realize I was 13 too and in some ways I was probably way more difficult to my parents, like in different ways than she is. So I've, I was a kid too and I was not. I did not have everything figured out, and I manipulated and I lied to my parents too and all those things. Oh yeah, um yeah, did you lie to Adam? Never once.

Katie: 1:07:04

Thank you. They were friends for those of you who don't know yes, we were.

Josiah: 1:07:08

They were friends as kids Since middle school. But yeah, no, that is true with kids. Just put yourself in their shoes. You can break out of it by examining your own life.

Mac: 1:07:20

Yeah, like empathy seems to be a key ingredient when it comes to extending forgiveness.

Katie: 1:07:26

Yeah, I think with kids and with spouses, really anyone that you're in a regular relationship with if you pay hard enough attention, you're probably going to have lots of opportunities to extend forgiveness in the small ways that you're talking about. Opportunities to extend forgiveness in the small ways that you're talking about, like, okay, I can think of one that I had to forgive offhand, but I okay, I talked earlier when you asked what annoys us about our spouses. Alex loves his car, the Mustang, the Mach-E and a month ago, about a month ago I was backing out of the garage and I wrecked it. I left the gas cap open.

Katie: 1:08:02

It's actually an electric car, but the little cap for the flap where you plug it in, was open and I pulled out too close to the garage and it snapped it. And oh, he loves that car.

Mac: 1:08:17

And I didn't even go back in the house right away.

Katie: 1:08:19

I just put it back in the garage, and then I no, I couldn't even get back in the house right away, I just put it back in the garage, and then I couldn't even get it back Whatever. So then I just took the van and went where I had to go, and I was just waiting.

Josiah: 1:08:26

You left it, yeah, in the doorway of the garage.

Katie: 1:08:29

Yeah, Maybe I couldn't pull it back in.

Josiah: 1:08:31

I don't know what happened.

Katie: 1:08:35

Anyways, I took the van. It just sounds like a movie scene. I took the van and then I got home.

Mac: 1:08:39

I have so much appreciation for Alex you should he needs it. What a cruciform individual.

Katie: 1:08:46

I was gone for a little while and I texted him like hey, I did something. And then I got home and I was just sort of ready Not that he would be like mean to me about it, but I was ready for him to just be kind of like irritated. You know, it's like cause he loves this car, it's going to have to go to the shop. He just got a new job, he's commuting to Madison, it's going to be the money, all of it. And so it was kind of bracing for like uh, what am I walking into? And there was like none of it, like he was just normal Find, like yep it it like there was no frustration. And I just noticed that I was like, oh, I talked about the water around the sink.

Mac: 1:09:25

Yeah, on that night, but played up your side.

Katie: 1:09:27

I'm just kidding um, no, but I just noticed that, being other on the other end of it, I'm like, oh, I probably wouldn't be that gracious in this situation because that was a stupid thing and it's really annoying and I could have taken the time to close the gas cap and I didn't think about it. Does that answer your question? I forget what the question was. How do we break out of the cycle of enemy making?

Mac: 1:09:49

Yeah Well, I think you guys have said some important things. I've heard empathy Like hey, if I put myself in their shoes it increases my capacity to extend forgiveness, because I will likely realize I've been there too. And then I heard you narrate a powerful story of when someone forgave you and how that could have been different and it impacted you, and those types of experiences can transform us to become those kinds of people. That's the whole point of receiving God's forgiveness. The most powerful car mess up. You know what I mean. Like that's a little microcosm of what God has done for you.

Mac: 1:10:30

I think the key takeaway like this is it is between the stimulus of a wrongdoing and your response. What will determine whether you spiral into the cycle of enemy making or become a conduit of God's love and forgiveness is where you fix your eyes. And the place to fix your eyes is Jesus on the cross praying Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. That's what gives you access to receive God's forgiveness. I didn't even know the full extent of my wrongdoing and God forgave me. We go back to sort of Corrie Ten Boom. We receive God's love and forgiveness and then we feel the current flowing through us to go and I can forgive this other person, even if they don't know the full extent of what they're doing.

Adam: 1:11:19

Right.

Mac: 1:11:21

All right, this has gotten really long.

Katie: 1:11:23

It has.

Mac: 1:11:24

It's been a long episode. Let's get into some praxis. Praxis time.

Katie: 1:11:28

Praxis podcast, praxis podcast. Yeah, what would you guys say are some practices that if someone's listening, they could lean and do to live this out.

Josiah: 1:11:39

Yeah, first practice would name, is just to sit in Jesus's presence with the full truth of one of your own sins. You know, in the fourth step of AA is what they call a fearless moral inventory. It's essentially in order to, in order to, like, understand what you've overcome in that space you have to take stock of everything you've done wrong in order to overcome and get past it. In our discipleship curriculum we call this experiencing God in your badness. So, essentially, sitting with your quote-unquote failures and badness and all the stuff that makes us feel terrible, is sitting with it and facing it with God. I think that I tried to name this earlier. God sees the effect that sin has on our lives and Jesus, in forgiving, he looks up to the Father, not towards us, saying I forgive you and you that stuff. We can rest assured that God does not hold those things against us and wants to, just as the prodigal father, open his arms and let us run to him. But we have to be willing to sit and view it in reality.

Mac: 1:13:15

I did that a few years ago. We go on a silent retreat every year together. Josiah, a couple years ago I felt God inviting me to do the fearless moral inventory where I just name all of it while sitting in his love, and it was so hard and transformative and it made me think. You know, I grew up Catholic and they have one of their practices is confession. You go to a priest you know I grew up Catholic and they have one of their practices is confession. You go to a priest. You know as much as you want, but to practice confession, that's something they offer at the retreat that we go to, and I think it's actually a practice that we're not very good at as Protestants.

Mac: 1:13:54

And yet the New Testament tells us to confess our sins to one another. There's something powerful that gets unlocked when you name the truth of what you did and how harmful it was in the presence of another person who follows Jesus, and let them embody God's love and proclaim his forgiveness over you. So maybe practice 1.2 would be you can do this with someone who you really trust to be a safe and Jesus-like person in your life to go. Hey, I need to tell you about something that I haven't told someone before and it's not fun, but I know you'll love me well and you'll embody God's forgiveness towards me and that puts a face. That puts a face to forgiveness that you might not experience, just you and Jesus praying. Here's another practice that I think gets at this is imaginatively enter a gospel story involving forgiveness. So one really great practice.

Mac: 1:14:52

If you get bored with reading the Bible, you read the gospels and it just feels like blah. This just is to slow down and actually imagine with all five senses, as if you're there, seeing it or even part of the story. So what do you see? What do you smell? What do you feel? Is there wind? Just as, using all five senses, enter into the story and then allow Jesus to show you things from different angles.

Mac: 1:15:22

And I remember one time I did this with a story in Luke 5 where Peter had been fishing all night with a few of his partners in the fishing industry and they came up empty-handed and the next morning they're cleaning out their nets and Jesus is preaching and teaching. And then he gets in the boat and is like, hey, throw those nets down. And it of course makes zero sense because they're night nets and now they're during the day and they'd been out all night and didn't catch anything. But then they catch this huge, you know ginormous amount of fish and the boats are sort of like overflowing with fish, they're starting to sink and Peter falls on his knees and essentially realizes he's standing in the presence of God and in Jesus's presence and is overwhelmed by his sinfulness.

Mac: 1:16:06

And I remember at one point entering that story with all five senses, like imagining being Peter, jesus instructing me to lower the nets, like imagining feeling the nets in my hands, smelling like the sea, all of it. And when it got to that moment where Peter realizes who he is, I began to just sob like Peter and I'm not a crier, I've become more of one in the last, like since you get kids. Kids change that for you. But the point is I felt it in a way that I had never experienced before, in a way that, just like reading the story and then going on the next story, would have never done so. If that helps you, if you're listening to this and that helps you, maybe just try it. Try entering into a story with all five senses and just allow.

Katie: 1:16:52

God to work in you as you do that and see what it unlocks. I love that. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Yeah, another one might just be memorize a passage on forgiveness. What was the passage that Corrie Ten Boom referenced? It was Romans.

Josiah: 1:17:05

Romans 5.5,. I think.

Katie: 1:17:07

How does it go?

Josiah: 1:17:09

But it's really cool the connection to the story.

Katie: 1:17:11

Yeah.

Josiah: 1:17:13

That's God's grace shed abroad in our hearts. It's something about.

Mac: 1:17:16

God pouring out his love in our hearts. So that we can overflow with love towards others, god pouring out his love in our hearts so that we can overflow with love towards others.

Katie: 1:17:27

And hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. So think about, obviously, Corrie Ten Boom had spent time meditating in scripture and dwelling on those passages in such a way that it seeped deep down into the fabric of her being, that at the moment when she couldn't do anything else, it was there and I think, okay, think about the times when we are in those moments like I can't picture that intensive a moment where my you know, this prison guard is coming up to me. But we all have those moments where our, like anxiety kind of hijacks the executive functioning in our brain. What is it the amygdala is like hijacks the executive functioning in our brain.

Katie: 1:18:02

What is it? The amygdala is like hijacking the logical reasoning thinking center. And when that happens and we're not thinking clearly, I think it's those times that when we've really meditated on something and memorized it, even if we can't really think or say or do much else, we can pull out, we can pull that out in the moment you can go back to a scripture that you've worked on memorizing and that has a lot of power.

Mac: 1:18:25

Yeah, it was like she had access to that in a moment where she didn't have access to much else and God was able to remind her of that verse, and then it helped with that pivot. It reminds me of Alex when he saw the car yeah, I was just immediately reminded Shout out to Alex John 316.

Adam: 1:18:44

He's really the star of this episode.

Mac: 1:18:48

That's good practice and, of course, there's lots of paths. You pick a passage that would help you know, anchor you to Jesus's forgiveness. I really thank you guys for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I really thank you guys for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Next time we are going to begin to talk about some concrete steps that get us moving along the process of forgiveness. After fixing your eyes on Jesus and attending to his example and receiving his forgiveness, what does it look like to now take concrete steps towards forgiving someone else in the way of Jesus? So we're going to unpack the first step during our next episode. Hope you'll tune in. We'll see you next time.

Adam: 1:19:30

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwi.com. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.