Breaking the Cycle of Enemy-Making

Katie: 0:21

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. So last time we started a new series on the topic of forgiveness, Few topics are more central to the Christian faith. God's forgiveness towards us is a cause for great celebration. Through Jesus, God offers us the gift of forgiveness and invites us into a restored relationship. So it's easy for us to rejoice in God's gift of forgiveness

‍Katie: 0:49

Yet we often have a really hard time practicing forgiveness ourselves. Rather than embracing the freedom and transformation that can come with forgiveness, including the possibility of reconciled relationship, we often get stuck in bitterness and resentment, to our own detriment. So in this series, we want to talk about how to actually practice and embody the forgiveness that Jesus invites and challenges us to live into. Whether it's learning how to receive God's forgiveness or asking others to forgive you, or extending forgiveness to others. Our hope and prayer is that you'd sense God inviting you deeper into practicing the way of Jesus with us. Last week, we talked about what forgiveness is and isn't, and today we want to talk about what keeps us stuck in unforgiveness, something we call the cycle of enemy making and being aware of how we get stuck in the cycle is the first step towards getting unstuck. So that's where we're headed today. Let's get into it.

Josiah: 1:54

Welcome everybody. My name is Josiah, I'm Mac.

Katie: 1:57

And I'm Katie.

Josiah: 1:59

All right, guys, to get us started. Today I have a conversation starter. If you weren't doing your current job that you're doing now, what would your absolute dream job be? If you could do anything, and it didn't matter how much money you made, something that would, just, you know, be the thing you wanted to do. Well, what's your dream job?

Katie: 2:19

I think it'd be really fun to be a college professor.

Josiah: 2:22

Okay.

Katie: 2:23

I really enjoy teaching, but I don't know that I would have the patience for kids younger than college. You know some of the behavioral stuff by the time they're in college. I feel like there's somewhat more ownership over like wanting to be there and wanting to learn and I think it'd be really fun to teach. I really enjoy. I really enjoy teaching. I feel like it's maybe one of my spiritual gifts. On that inventory, at least that's what it said and I think being in a college atmosphere would be a lot of fun. I know there's a lot of research involved research I could go either way. You know I'll take a little bit of it, but I would enjoy like the actual teaching part of it. Yeah, I think that'd be fun, did you know I would?

Mac: 3:02

did you know that, um, when? But I think that'd be fun. Did you know that when I went into grad school, that's what I was kind of?

Katie: 3:08

thinking yeah, I could see that, I could totally see you doing that.

Mac: 3:12

Grad school is one more step towards getting a PhD and then teaching. There are a whole lot of reasons why I didn't pursue that route, but yeah, I like the flexibility of that. You know what I mean. Like it's a pretty flexible schedule. You're working with students at a really formidable season of life.

Adam: 3:33

You can draw so many diagrams.

Katie: 3:35

Lots of diagrams, lots of matrices.

Mac: 3:38

Yep, but not to reduplicate, I might choose being a therapist. I feel like I bring a lot of those frameworks to a lot of what I do, even as a pastor. I don't think I would like some of the really messy stuff. I think it would depend on how high the functioning is of the clientele I'd be working with. But I'm always really intrigued. I've done a lot of reading, a lot of study. I have three sisters. Two of them are therapists. I love talking to that stuff.

Katie: 4:12

You do do a lot of that in your current role. What about you, Josiah?

Josiah: 4:17

Well, I mean, I am currently in school with the goal of becoming a psychotherapist. I do think that if it wasn't that though, I think I'd like to be I think I'd like to write novels. I think if I had time just to unplug, go away and write and come up with a story, I think it would be really fun. I could see that being fun.

Mac: 4:42

I thought you were going to say the Lincoln lawyer. Just drive around kicking butt in the backseat.

Katie: 4:47

You are kind of on this.

Josiah: 4:48

That's a callback to an earlier episode.

Katie: 4:51

And you are on this kick where you're learning a lot about the law and what Supreme Court cases are coming down.

Josiah: 4:56

Well, actually, my brother he's the director at that institution in Boston told me that when I graduate he is, uh, they really need, um like uh, evaluators, uh, and your job is essentially to be a state representative of making a case for if this person should be admitted to Sandwich or not? And um. You spend a lot of time in the courtroom. So he said you do that on the side and just take on type of stuff like that Interesting.

Josiah: 5:27

And to make some extra money, but also you're in the courtroom a lot and I was like that sounds awesome. That sounds so fun being cross-examined by someone I don't know. It sounds really fun.

Katie: 5:38

I don't know if being cross-examined sounds fun to me, but that sounds fun to you Because it's not like a personal attack on me.

Adam: 5:49

It's just like an analysis of if this person should be.

Mac: 5:52

You don't imagine yourself like in a movie where they're like questioning your competence or something like that.

Adam: 5:55

You can't handle the truth.

Mac: 5:59

Yeah, see, that's the problem for me when it comes to cross-examinations is like it's not necessarily a desire to discern the truth. It's a desire to prove one's case, whether it's right or wrong. I don't really like that. Yeah, it feels manipulative, but it's important, it is. I mean, yes, but the quest should be truth. Yes, all right, katie, what do you think?

Katie: 6:24

I agree with you, and I think that the assumption underpinning our justice system is that when you have two sides that are sort of both pit against each other, you have the best possibility of the truth coming out. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but maybe it's the least of all bad options that exist.

Josiah: 6:49

I don't know if there's a better option of trying to determine that.

Katie: 6:53

Yes, because you consider human motives right and unfortunately, most people are not motivated to just find the truth. They're motivated to make the best scenario for themselves.

Josiah: 7:03

Interesting.

Mac: 7:04

Well speaking of career choices and bad motives. We're sitting in this tension right now that, on the one hand, we know God loves us and forgives us, and we know that we're supposed to forgive others and yet, oh my goodness. And yet we struggle with this Like the parable of the unmerciful servant. We're so quick to forget God's forgiveness toward us and then we refuse to forgive others, and so we're just sitting in that tension. Throughout this series. We rejoice and receive God's forgiveness and yet have a hard time extending it to other people. Last episode we tried to get clear on what forgiveness is and isn't, and that was an intentional starting point, because I feel like lots of people get stuck in unforgiveness because they equate forgiveness with something that it isn't. And if you're equating forgiveness with something that it isn't, then you're naturally going to resist it and then remain stuck in that unforgiveness. So we laid out several things that forgiveness is not. If you haven't listened to that episode, you can go back and do that and then we gave a definition of what it is to kind of anchor us and hopefully provide a foundation for moving forward.

Mac: 8:15

Throughout this series we said forgiveness is the intentional process of choosing to no longer count another person's sin or wrongdoing against them. So it's the cancellation of a debt owed without the need for repayment, to open up the door to the possibility of reconciliation. So we just name these key components, that it's a choice. It doesn't just happen, it's a process, not just like a one-time thing. You might have to choose it repeatedly.

Mac: 8:42

It involves acknowledging the wrongdoing Someone has sinned or wronged me in some way. It's the cancellation of a debt, so mercy gets the last word. It's not exacting vengeance, right, you're releasing bitterness and resentment, and it's not required, but leaves the door open to the possibility of reconciliation. So that's just kind of a quick recap of where we are. One of the practices we left our listeners with last episode was to talk to someone who's embodied forgiveness or get acquainted with like a famous story of forgiveness, and I threw out this idea of maybe we should do like a feature story each episode, just to kind of bring some imagination, inspiration around what we're talking about. And Katie, you have a painting in your office.

Katie: 9:34

I do.

Mac: 9:35

Of a young girl named Ruby Bridges. Would you share yeah?

Katie: 9:40

Well, she's not young anymore. Not anymore. She was young in the painting.

Mac: 9:42

But you have the picture of her when she was young, I do and doing something pretty courageous.

Katie: 9:48

Yeah, I love the story of Ruby Bridges. I do have her painting in my office, a painting of her and we have the children's book at my house that I often read to my kids. Ruby Bridges was a young black student in Louisiana, in the South, in the 1950s into the early 60s and she was around when the Brown versus Board of Education decision was handed down. Josiah, you've been studying the Supreme Court a lot. Do you know what the Brown versus Board of Education is? Okay?

Adam: 10:17

What was that?

Katie: 10:18

You know that one.

Josiah: 10:19

It's a pretty common one, yes, but I feel like I knew that before.

Katie: 10:21

Okay yeah, it was a softball question.

Mac: 10:23

You just hit it out of the park. Way to go, yes, but I feel like I knew that before. Okay, yeah, it was a softball question. You just hit it out of the park.

Katie: 10:28

Way to go. Yes, so Brown versus Board of Education was the decision that ordered schools to desegregate. But just because the Supreme Court ordered it didn't mean that they were excited about it. So you had this era in which the schools were supposed to integrate black students and white students, but the schools were really resistant In the 1950s.

Katie: 10:47

In the 50s, yep and Ruby Bridges had passed this entrance exam and she was slated to be the first black student at an all-white school and the school was not excited about her coming. The other students and their parents weren't excited about her coming, so she had to be escorted her first day of school and the days thereafter she had to be escorted by federal marshals walking into the school to ensure her safety. And while she was walking in, people would protest. They would stand, yell terrible things at her, Lots of racial slurs and insults. Apparently, one lady told her every day that she was going to poison her and kill her. People would hold up black baby dolls that looked like they were dead to signal that they were going to get terrible stuff.

Katie: 11:32

Terrible, terrible things To the six-year-old. How can you do that when she gets to the school, only one of all the teachers will teach her. Everyone else refuses to teach her, so there's only one teacher who would teach her, and then none of the other students would even be in that classroom. So she's in the classroom by herself with this one teacher, can't go to recess, has to bring her own lunch. Terrible experience.

Katie: 11:51

But what really sticks out to me from the story is that each day, as she would walk in surrounded by these protesters, she did something that I think is just so powerful and that's she would pray for them. That I think is just so powerful and that's she would pray for them. And her prayer as she was walking into school, I think in many ways resembles the prayer that Jesus prayed when he was on the cross. He said Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And she prayed please, god, try to forgive these people, because even if they say those bad things, they don't know what they're doing. And she would pray this twice a day on her way to school and on her way home from school.

Katie: 12:26

And man, six years old, to be able to do that is just unbelievable to me. I mean, if there's ever a situation that most of us would look at and go, yes, she was treated terribly and would have every right to be bitter and resentful and even hate these people, these adults who were traumatizing her, but to look at that and go, wow, I can't believe she would pray that prayer of forgiveness. It just feels like a really important lesson. So I like to look up at that in my office and sometimes, when you get those small feelings of offense, or someone says something the wrong way or bothers you, you feel wronged in some way. It feels like a very powerful reminder of the power of forgiveness that's rooted in God.

Mac: 13:09

Yeah, I wonder who her parents were. You know, like I'm not saying the spirit of God couldn't animate a six-year-old, but like I would suspect, like wow, what were her parents?

Mac: 13:21

like to be like pointing her to the way of Jesus. But obviously I think what stands out to me is just her courage. You know her courage in the face of adversity. Not only would it take incredible courage to walk to and from school and to have all that attention on you in the middle of all this like hostility and animosity and vitriol, but, as we named last episode, man, courage is part of forgiveness. If you're going to forgive, it takes courage and she just embodies like some chutzpah.

Adam: 13:58

She does.

Mac: 13:58

You know what I mean and I want to be like that.

Adam: 14:05

Could you define whatever word you just said, what does?

Mac: 14:07

chutzpah mean. It's like a you don't know what chutzpah is. No, it's like a Yiddish word that means like bold and audacious, and it can be used positive or negative. Positively is the way I'm using it, like wow, she had some real courage and some boldness in what she was doing Backbone. But negatively it could be someone who's like being inappropriately bold or like hard-headed, yeah, yep, but I just think she inspires courage, like it's sometimes forgiveness is associated with being wimpy, right and like you need to stand up for yourself and your honor. And I just think this chutzpah she brings some bold, courageous right.

Adam: 14:56

She embodies that she does.

Mac: 14:59

The other thing is is man? This is kingdom Aikido. I preached about this a few weeks ago. But oftentimes when we're wronged we sort of have two primary responses the fight response like how do I get even and overpower and come out on top. And then usually, if we can't anticipate doing that, we run away, we flee. That's the flight response way, we flee. That's the flight response. And Jesus offers a third way which is nonviolent resistance. So it's not passivity. We're sort of responding to wrongs, but in a way that doesn't meet evil with evil or blow to blow right.

Mac: 15:41

And I use the example of Aikido in this sermon. It's a Japanese form of martial arts where the goal isn't to like, counterattack your opponent, but use the example of Aikido in this sermon. It's a Japanese form of martial arts where the goal isn't to counterattack your opponent but use the force of the attack to disarm your opponent. You're not trying to harm your opponent, but disarm your opponent.

Mac: 16:07

Cheek or give away your second garment or go the extra mile, is empowering those who are listening to him not to ignore evil in a passive way or run away from it, but in each one of those examples and you can listen to the sermon if you want, but like he's actually equipping them to assert their dignity and their humanity in a way that holds up a mirror and sort of exposes the wrongdoing for what it is. And it just strikes me as this is like one of those masterful moments where she's asserting her dignity and value as a human being no, I get to be in this school right and she's refusing to retaliate in the way that other people are wronging her, so she's not exchanging blow for blow. And then she's doing this thing twice a day, praying for forgiveness, which is essentially holding up a mirror and going. What you're doing is wrong and I'm not going to let it infect me.

Josiah: 16:58

Yeah, that's really powerful.

Katie: 17:02

And it's especially powerful given her age. Yes, like any six-year-old year old, you expect to act like a six year old would act, and I think it's clear that to me, that God was present in that yeah, that story unlocks a lot for me.

Mac: 17:17

I want to be someone who has some chutzpah and I want to learn how to do kingdom Aikido in the way of Jesus, in the face of wrongdoing. Yeah, me too.

Mac: 17:30

All right, well, today we want to continue this conversation of how to get unstuck when we're locked in a pattern of unforgiveness, and this builds on our last episode.

Mac: 17:41

Today we're going to really do a deep dive into what prevents us from forgiving other people, and we want to talk about what we call the cycle of enemy making. In a previous sermon I did years ago, I called it the flywheel of unforgiveness, which I kind of feel like it was a little bit cheesy. But the idea of a flywheel is like the more rounds you get, like it gets spinning and then it's harder to get out, and so there was something to that. The more we get stuck in this cycle of enemy making, the harder it is to get out of it. And I do want to make sure at the top here that we're giving credit where credit is due. We used to have another pastor on staff, one of my dear friends, jody Bean, and he was preaching on forgiveness and came across some writing by Desmond Tutu and then brought it to our preaching team and together we began to kind of fill this out.

Mac: 18:33

So I don't remember where all the lines are, but I wanted to make sure, like hey, Jody kind of captured this, brought it. We did some reworking of it and kind of presented it to our congregation. But today we want to talk to you about the cycle of enemy making and how we get stuck in it.

Katie: 18:53

Yeah. So I'm excited for this conversation, but before we get into the details, maybe one clarifier and one suggestion. The clarifier I would offer is that there are four components to the cycle of enemy making. We're going to present them in like a sequential order, but once you're locked in the cycle they can all be happening simultaneously or they can be playing off each other. So that's the first thing, just to keep that in mind. And then my suggestion would be that it might be helpful to identify someone that you're struggling to forgive and then, as we work through each component, you can kind of reflect on how this is showing up with that other person. So we'd encourage you to identify a real life situation to sort of keep in front of you as you listen to this. So let's start with the first component.

Josiah: 19:36

Yeah. So the first component, number one, is we are wronged by someone, so think of this as like the initiating event, and these wrongs can be big or small. Obviously, things that are physically harmful to us are easier to name that if someone, like, punched me in the face, that'd be very easy to name. Oh, you punched me and now I'm hurt. Yeah, adam, that wasn't right what you did to Josiah.

Mac: 20:02

So sorry, and now I'm hurt.

Josiah: 20:02

Yeah, Adam, that wasn't right what you did to Josiah, so sorry, but yeah, but sometimes they're often very small or they're not necessarily physical pain. The point of this is that you're essentially on the receiving end of something that's legitimately wrong An infraction, maybe like an act of injustice, like a form of loss in some way and being wronged is always going to result in some sort of pain, and this is what essentially initiates the process I'm thinking of. I thought of an example, for when I was younger, when we were just starting to have kids, we didn't make a lot of money and we were renting a house. It was a very small house and when we moved out we were in a smaller community and I knew the landlords. We were renting the house. The landlords were very well off and we were not, and when we moved out I remember they didn't give us almost any of our security deposit back.

Josiah: 21:20

But in my opinion, in their itemized list it was like the toilets weren't cleaned good enough. There was like a stain in the toilet bowl there was. We didn't change the light bulbs, so they were like itemizing for the light bulbs and a few other things, like we didn't apparently I didn't mow the grass like soon enough for when we moved out, so they charged us for having to mow the grass. So it's like, anyway, I remember in that moment feeling very wronged, especially knowing that we were struggling so much and we needed that security deposit just to move into the next place. So that was an example of when I don't know that was like a real moment where I had to practice this. But I will tell you right now I did not.

Mac: 22:11

I will tell you right now I did not.

Josiah: 22:13

I will tell you right now I did not.

Mac: 22:15

No, yeah, I think it's interesting listening to how you've set it up. There seems to be a distinction that needs to be made between real or legitimate wrongs and imagined wrongs, and both can throw us into this cycle of enemy making, you know. But I heard you kind of making a distinction there that, like a real wrong is sort of an actual injustice, where harm is inflicted upon someone and involves like tangible, verifiable, objective components. Yes, someone hits you in the face, a betrayal of trust, like hey, will you hold this in confidence? And then they share it with someone else.

Josiah: 22:59

Yeah, yeah, I almost wonder if it's it's worth having the distinction. It's not. We're not necessarily asking you to like dismiss, um, feeling hurt by something someone did, like that definitely happens. We make meaning out of things that maybe weren't supposed to, or we add narrative to actions that someone did without really even thinking. And it doesn't mean that there isn't times to clean up a mess if it needs to be, even if things were very unintentional. But it is also important for us to distinguish hey, there's times when I misinterpreted something and I could potentially follow up, or I need to have enough thick skin for myself to say, no, I don't think that was intentional and it was smaller and be able to distinguish the difference of when someone intentionally wrongs me.

Mac: 23:58

Yeah, so would it be fair to say that there's real or legitimate wrongs and imagined wrongs, where it's sort of in the eye of the beholder so a perceived offense that may not have occurred or have been misinterpreted? We can think of examples like a misinterpretation around tone. Maybe you've experienced that with your kids or your spouse at some point, or someone didn't meet your expectations and you're filtering it through the lens of neglect or something like that. You know what I mean, something like that. You know what I mean and I think that either one of these a legitimate wrong or a perceived imaginative wrong can throw us into the cycle we're going to be outlining today.

Mac: 24:43

But I might submit that oftentimes, when we're stuck in this cycle of enemy making, it's some combination of both, like we get these distorted lenses on and we can't. Often it's complicated. Add to the fact that when someone's legitimately wronged you, sometimes if they're not healthy, they'll actually pretend like it's a perceived wrong or imaginative wrong, because for them to admit their wrongdoing would be difficult for them. They have motive not to. I just want to name, like when we say hey, a wrong has been done, there's some layers that get complicated. There's real wrongs, imaginative wrongs and often a blend of the two, and all of these can throw us into the cycle of enemy making. But for our sake, today let's just assume the wrong is legitimate. You know what I mean?

Katie: 25:35

Yeah, yeah, I think you guys are onto something. I mean the fact human beings are all wired so differently. We have different personalities, different experiences and just by doing life with each other we're constantly bumping into each other. So I don't think any of us have a shortage of wrongs that could have the potential to throw us into the cycle of enemy making. And, yeah, they could be perceived, they could be justified. There's a lot to be said there, but I hear what you're saying, mac. I think for the purpose of this conversation, let's assume it's a legitimate wrong.

Josiah: 26:07

Yes A legitimate injustice. Yeah, I heard this quote and I don't totally remember who it is, but maybe you can tell me. And I think it's important in this conversation is it said that all of spiritual formation is going from is moving from having thin skin and a hard heart to having thick skin and a soft heart.

Mac: 26:32

That's really good. I don't know who said that. I read it in a book.

Adam: 26:35

Okay.

Josiah: 26:37

But I think it's important to name that. We're not trying to dismiss if you feel hurt by someone, but there is a difference in learning how to deal and manage my own narratives that I build, compared to when someone has legitimately wronged me in some way, because if I have the right lenses on, I can interpret almost anything that happens in my life as hurt that you need to manage. For me, there's a certain level of autonomy word naming that you have as a person that says it's my job to manage my narratives, it's not your job to manage them, and it's healthy for us to separate the things that we're interpreting different from the action that actually happened.

Mac: 27:24

Yeah, I really like that quote.

Adam: 27:26

I do too.

Mac: 27:27

And it supports, I think. Going back to Ruby Bridges thick skin, soft heart compared to maybe some examples I'm seeing in the media where it's like thin skin someone does you wrong and you have to tweet about it right away, revealing your hardness of heart.

Josiah: 27:45

You know what I mean.

Katie: 27:46

I like that too.

Josiah: 27:46

Yeah, that one really stuck out to me. But now I'm going to look it up. You guys can move on.

Katie: 27:50

All right. So the first step in our cycle of enemy making is that we are wronged by someone, and then that leads to the next step, which is that we harden our hearts against that person. So instead of taking another path, which we'll explore in our next episode in the cycle of enemy making, we choose to feed the pain that the other person caused. By sort of hardening ourselves against the other person, we put fuel on the fire of the offense by ruminating it or playing it over in our minds, and the more we play it over in our minds, the more angry we get. And then we get upset, we get bitter, we get resentful and instead of turning towards the other person in forgiveness, we harden ourselves against the other person. And I was trying to think of a time when I have felt myself getting caught up in this cycle, and particularly the step and my mind went back to an example in college, that's how far back you had to go.

Katie: 28:42

Well, no, I didn't have to go that far back. I've got one from like last week For me or for you, for all of us.

Katie: 28:48

Okay, me or for you, for all of us Okay. But I just remember living in a house with a whole bunch of roommates and obviously you're doing life together and sharing a kitchen and all that stuff and you kind of bump into each other. And there was one roommate in particular that just sort of said and did things that rubbed some of us the wrong way and instead of going to her in maturity some of us the wrong way and instead of going to her immaturity like we should have, we kind of talked to each other about it and over time a narrative built up that painted that roommate in not the best light and I would say, looking back, that my heart became somewhat hardened towards her for a time. It didn't stay like that forever.

Mac: 29:30

Are you guys still friends?

Katie: 29:31

Mm-hmm. Oh, cool yeah.

Mac: 29:35

You're so godly, you had to go back to your college days to think of an example.

Katie: 29:39

I didn't say that I didn't have one since then. It's just the example that stuck out to me.

Mac: 29:44

I have one from just a couple weeks ago and this might be a little vulnerable because it involves the two of you. We were in a staff meeting a few weeks ago and Katie, you were doing we do a check-in, you know, at the beginning of staff meeting like hey, how's everybody doing? And Katie, you were sharing about some difficult stuff going on in your life, particularly with extended family and how it, like you know, skyrocketed over the weekend and we have a playful staff, like we're pretty comfortable with each other. We've done a lot of life together and so oftentimes there's banter and that sort of took over.

Mac: 30:21

I definitely got swept up in the moment and, for whatever reason, despite the seriousness of the moment, I got sucked into some banter, okay, and which wasn't great. Despite the seriousness of the moment, I got sucked into some banter, okay, and which wasn't great. And Josiah, oh Josiah, sweet Josiah was trying to be present to Katie's check-in. I was totally not, which is my fault, but then Josiah like had this huge volcanic eruption in the staff meeting where he kind of like called everybody out and then it got really quiet. Like nobody knew really what to do after. That Didn't feel great. So after the staff meeting. I knew I had some messes to clean up. Katie, I went and talked to you, tried to clean that mess up, but I didn't get a chance to talk with Josiah that day and I knew we that I wanted to talk to you about it. I knew we would probably talk the next day and uh, we've been on staff for how long like together, Josiah long time, nine years.

Mac: 31:21

Yeah, so you know we've had our fair share of um talking through hard things, whether it pertains to the two of us or just life. You know all of that and every single time I've had a positive experience. So we have some really good reps of being open and honest and real with each other. So there's a real strong foundation there. But I remember for the rest of that day having a really hard time leading up to our conversation, not dismissing like the truth of what you had said at the staff meeting because of the way you said it, and I remember like replaying that when I got home and just feeling like frustrated and like you know what I mean. This is very, very vulnerable.

Mac: 32:03

Yeah Well, I, I'm just saying I remember replaying the staff meeting moment and feeling frustrated and like and I and and ruminating on it, and like watching it over my mind, and and it was really tempting to like focus on the way Josiah said it as a way of dismissing it and not having to own my part. It took some really hard work. And then, of course, the next day, um, you know, we sat down and, um, it ended up being a great conversation between the two of us. Um, I felt like. I felt like, um, we were both able to be honest and say what we needed to say and and, like I've always experienced, we walk out the other side of those conversations actually closer to one another rather than further away, which is, yeah, I don't know the goal.

Josiah: 32:52

I appreciate you saying that man Thanks for um away, which is I don't know the goal. I appreciate you saying that man Thanks for no. I appreciated the whole process. I was telling you that I appreciate being able to have moments of candor, knowing that in the end, if it was taken wrong or it caused an unnecessary amount of disruption or pain, that we're going to work it out. There's a safety that comes from being able to be honest in a group of people, knowing that, even if I said it wrong or in a different way than I intended, the meaning can still be made and we can clean it up together.

Mac: 33:32

Yeah, and the gap between the moment, the incident, whatever that is in, whatever relationship you're in and the follow-up conversation assuming you and the other person have the courage to go there is really important, right? Because you can harden your heart and sort of ruminate and get calloused or and we actually have a guiding principle around this you can give the other person the benefit of the doubt. Until you have the conversation, you can assume the best about the other person. You know what I mean and what's the worst that happens? You have the follow-up conversation and you realize, while you were giving them the benefit of the doubt, they were actually being a total jack wagon and were full of ill intent and horrible motives. And then you clean that up.

Mac: 34:14

You know, what I mean. But oftentimes between that stimulus, that event and the follow-up conversation, we make a lot of meaning and that does something to our heart and our disposition towards the other person.

Katie: 34:28

Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that because I was going to say something that stuck out to me as you told that story, Mac, was you mentioned how the situation happened, what, like midday on a Monday and you knew you weren't going to be able to have a conversation with Josiah that day, but you did the next day. I think that gap is really important and I also think the proximity of the incident to the follow-up matters, because typically the longer that time period is between it happening and following up, I think the more easy it is to harden our hearts against the other person. So I do think that prompt follow-up and touch point is really really important to talk about it sooner rather than later, Because we all know our minds can kind of run and spin and then we kind of end up talking to other people and by the time you actually talk to the person, lots of narratives have been formed.

Mac: 35:18

Yeah, that's why my general advice to people between when an incident happens is assuming you're not emotionally hijacked, like your amygdala hasn't taken over and you're in an unproductive space, have that conversation as soon as you possibly can, because that's when your narrative is most pliable and when we talk about real and imagined wrongs. If it's an imagined wrong, it's not solidified. You're able to give the other person some explanatory, some room to explain, and what could be something that's now a solidified narrative was just like a small misunderstanding if you have the conversation right away. But again, the temptation is we've, because we're wounded or sense a wound, we sort of harden our hearts. Sometimes we bring other people in which we'll talk about in a moment and that just solidifies this wrong and it works against forgiveness and reconciliation.

Adam: 36:13

I think, to go along with what you're saying. I was just going to add that I feel like it does take self-awareness and it's different for every person in every situation because I feel like for me, like on one hand, yes, I would agree with you that having that conversation sooner is probably for the better, but also as someone who processes things much slower than probably the average person, if I was to jump into a conversation after feeling like I was hurt ASAP, like you said, I would be much more emotionally compromised and sometimes even taking a day or two to settle myself allows me to give that benefit of the doubt much easier.

Adam: 36:52

So that's just me personally and, like I said, I think it just takes self-awareness for you on an individual level to know what that fine line is between building up that hardness of heart or allowing yourself to soften and enter into a conversation, into a productive way.

Josiah: 37:08

Yeah, that's great, so long as you're still committing to address it. Sometimes I think there's a lot of wisdom in waiting until things calm down, but people often ride the wave and then eventually it's not worth bringing up anymore because they don't feel so strongly about it. So I think calming down is good, but committing to still address it is important.

Mac: 37:37

Yeah, and I hear you, Adam, advocating for each person, honoring the time it takes to get to that productive space with a commitment to have the conversation.

Adam: 37:46

Yeah.

Mac: 37:48

Yeah, I would want to second that. I think that's important because nothing's worse than going into it in an unproductive space and adding fuel to the fire Like that's not helpful right, there's one other.

Josiah: 38:00

I have another quote. Oh, did you find out who did the? Yes, john Stott.

Mac: 38:05

Oh yeah, john.

Josiah: 38:06

Good old John, john Stott, yeah, across the pond the definition of spiritual growth is going from having thin skin and a hard heart to having thick skin and a tender heart. I like that, no another. It's a famous one from Abraham Lincoln. He said he was speaking about, I think, a political opponent who was dragging his name through the mud, and he said I don't like that man, I must get to know him better. The assumption that I don't like him because I don't understand him Right right, I just like that approach, yeah.

Mac: 38:44

Okay, so there's some wrongdoing that happens. Then, in light of that wrongdoing, we ruminate, play it over, and the work that does is it hardens our heart towards the other person. That's the second part. The third part of this enemy-making cycle is that we then begin to view the other person as an enemy. So this flows right from number two. We're hardening our hearts, we're ruminating on it and the wrong that's done, we're replaying it. It hardens our heart and then this distorts our vision and perception of the other person and, as a result, we end up dehumanizing the other. We treat them as another and in a way that dehumanizes them. Rather than seeing them as a brother or sister or a beloved, we begin to see them as opposition, as an enemy.

Mac: 39:38

I often tell our congregation that at least a few things are true of every single person you encounter, no matter what. They're created in God's image Imagi Odei they're created in God's image, they're fearfully and wonderfully made. They're created in God's image, they're fearfully and wonderfully made, and they're someone that Jesus died for. That's true of every single person that you encounter, and our one job as kingdom people is to ascribe worth to the intrinsic value and worth that other people have, by showing them love, and so at this stage of the enemy making cycle, we lose sight of all of that. Rather than seeing the other person as creating God's image, we de-imagiode them. Rather than seeing them as a human being, we dehumanize them. We other the other person, we make them the enemy and adversary, and this becomes then the glasses we wear. Right, we end up having these dehumanizing glasses through which we view the other person and almost filter all of our interactions or memories of them. Through that make sense, mm-hmm. You guys think of examples where this shows up?

Katie: 40:49

Well, one thing that came to mind for me is you're saying we view the other person as an enemy, and when I immediately think about the word enemy I'm like, well, I don't have any enemies but I love. Cameron preached on this a couple of weeks ago and he talked about how the word enemy can feel really strong, like it can feel like an arch rival or a nemesis and like a story. But Cameron challenged us to see the little ways that we can make enemies out of those close to us, be it our friends, our family or those we love, and he talked about how we do this. By just kind of allowing unresolved conflicts and unspoken grievances to kind of grow into barriers between us and eventually they create division where there is one's connection, and it's not always dramatic or obvious. I think it can happen through kind of small, repeated acts of judgment or avoidance or withholding grace, and then over time those actions can build a wall and turn those we care about into adversaries without us really totally realizing it.

Mac: 41:40

It reminds me of that quote by Eminem, Adam's favorite musical artist. It's not necessarily true.

Katie: 41:52

Is it not true?

Mac: 41:53

Is it not true?

Katie: 41:57

Favorite no probably not, but he's up there.

Mac: 42:00

He's up there.

Adam: 42:01

He's gotta be Adam, yeah.

Mac: 42:04

Mom's spaghetti. Come on, dude.

Katie: 42:06

He's one of your favorites, Mac.

Mac: 42:09

Yeah, I mean I was working out this morning with my son Griffin. He was sitting on the treadmill while I worked out. He likes to bop to the music and an Eminem song came on and it was that collaborative project between Eminem and Rihanna.

Adam: 42:24

Is it Rihanna or Rihanna Rihanna?

Mac: 42:27

No, I called her Rihanna for many years, and then heard her refer to herself as Rihanna. Oh, this is mind-blowing to me she was wrong. Yeah, she's probably wrong. It's like your sister and her last name, wall of the day. I'm a heart, you know.

Katie: 42:45

Is this why she made the song called what's my Name?

Mac: 42:48

I don't know, but I called her Rihanna for so long, and then I had that same moment you guys did where I was, like I think I'm saying it wrong.

Adam: 42:54

Okay, anyways, your favorite artist.

Mac: 42:56

Yes, love the way you lie. There are some swears in this, so I'm not going to read the whole thing, but it's on this push pull dynamic we're talking about.

Katie: 43:08

Will you say it like Eminem?

Mac: 43:10

No, okay, you ever love somebody so much you can barely breathe when you're with them. M you met and neither one of you even know what hit them. Got that warm, fuzzy feeling. Yeah, them chills used to get them. Are you trying not to laugh? Okay, the song continues. I gotta bleep out the next line. Next thing they know they're at odds with one another. Now you're in each other's face, spewing venom in your words.

Mac: 43:43

When you spit them, you push, pull each other's hair, scratch, claw, bite them, right you guys know the song, I do know the song um, I was working out this morning, this song came on and then I thought of this podcast because I'm like kind of picking up on what Cameron was saying. This does happen to those closest with us. Imagine when your kids were born and you first hold them in your arms. You're like overwhelmed with this feeling of love, like this is the most precious thing ever. Fast forward 15 years when you're teaching them to drive and they're being wonky and it's so easy, like that is not my disposition, this precious child that I'm holding in my arms. Now I'm dealing with something totally different. My frame is different. Or imagine, for many people, like the day you get married. You can't imagine Like you're so in love with this human being and then go to that place where you're in the middle of the argument because they didn't load the dishwasher correctly or whatever.

Mac: 44:46

And it's like your frame of reference. What's different? Your frame of reference is different. It's just like Eminem says the great philosopher, Just like Eminem says the great philosopher.

Josiah: 44:59

Yeah, yeah, there's this. It's a very subtle shift and I don't think we always notice it without doing the work. Where someone goes from, something happened or a repeated amount of things happen, sort of like death by a thousand cuts type of thing. It can be little annoyances and things we don't deal with, and pretty soon now I'm like I've put on these lenses and now all I see is them as the enemy.

Katie: 45:30

As all the negative stuff you know, and what it makes me realize is how we respond to and internalize those little things matters a lot. Like we can sit around and wait for the big moment. But yeah, I would just encourage those listening to go. What are just the little grievances that kind of get under your skin, and how do you add meaning to those? How do you replay it in your mind and tell yourself a story about what was happening in that moment, what the person intended?

Mac: 46:02

And how do? You kind of let it fester and then you're no longer seeing them as beloved yours or God's. By the way, um, griffin and I are listening to the radio edited version, so I just want to, and it's in case someone's concerned. Um, I don't think Griffin's absorbing much of it anyways, yeah.

Josiah: 46:20

Yeah, it just becomes this. It's very subtle in the way that it shifts the way we view someone and I don't even think we realize it. In most cases we don't see how they've shifted into an enemy now, and now we don't like, subconsciously, we're not viewing them as fully human, just like us. It's now. It's all the ways that they're not like us, all the things that they don't do or do do um, and the jump from one the wrong to three doesn't necessarily take days, not even necessarily minutes.

Mac: 47:03

It can happen in a few seconds, you know, like it can happen in an instant, especially depending on how often we live into this cycle. When it comes to other people, it can become a way of life where if someone wrongs us, boom enemy. And we sort of live in this distorted framework.

Josiah: 47:27

Yeah, I'm thinking maybe you could answer this, mac or Katie. You too I get into the Enneagram. There's lots of resources on it, but some of the terminology they use is they'll call them red flags, where there are moments or there are things. When you understand yourself, you will learn to recognize that you're going down an unhealthy path, Like I'm moving towards stress or I'm disintegrating in a certain way, and everybody has these like red flag moments that they can pay attention to. What do you think for someone who is to identify if they're in this cycle? What would like a good red flag moment be for? This person is becoming an enemy in my mind.

Mac: 48:21

I had one last night. I um, my pace has been really fast over the last month. I feel like, um, every day is kind of, uh, filled to the brim, very little margin, and I'm falling behind. And so, uh, I've, so, uh, I've been working. I feel like I'm in overdrive, which itself is sort of a red flag.

Mac: 48:42

Um, and last night I was cleaning up after dinner and Josie was texting someone and I found myself irritated that I could feel some irritation bubbling up that like, oh, I'm cleaning and she's texting, but it wasn't like a neglect, a neglectful like, hey, she's just not helping. She was inviting someone over later on to like hang out with us, and I noticed that irritation is like, oh, like I'm becoming irritated at things I shouldn't be, if that makes sense. Like I find myself frustrated with normal stuff and I've lost the systems. I try to think systems. It's easy then to get like narrow-minded and cause and effect as if, like, the text while I'm cleaning is the problem, when in actuality, the overall pace of my life is the problem. That's now clouding my judgment moment to moment yeah that makes sense.

Josiah: 49:40

Yeah, yeah, so for you you're, you're um with the people that may be in your home and your immediate family is uh, your red flag is noticing being irritated with small things yeah, I can tell, for me, one of the red flags really is ruminating Like, if I might, if I find myself replaying something over and over and over.

Katie: 50:04

I saw a really interesting post or quote or something yesterday about how overthinking is is where our mind goes If there's an emotion that we're not fully sitting with. So I don't know if that's true or not, but it just made me think, like when I walk away from something feeling hurt or harmed or, I don't know, wronged in some way, maybe there's something to be said there for the fact that I'm trying to replay it over and over and over. What do they mean? What did I say? How did I respond? What does that mean? What is that person thinking? Like I'll just go over and over and over and over?

Mac: 50:43

Is there something else I could be doing in that moment, but that seems to be a red flag for me. Ruminating for me is sometimes or thinking through a problem or a tension or relational dynamic can be a mechanism for avoiding the discomfort of what the dynamic is doing, and I, with my therapist, have worked on noticing when it's positive rumination, like reflection on the system and how things are going so that I can show up in a more mature way, or when, in actuality, this is out of my control, that's over-functioning, it's spending my energy in the wrong place, and the work is actually to sit in the discomfort of this person not behaving the way I want them to or the situation not going the way that I would hope it would, and accepting that for what it is.

Katie: 51:27

Yeah, that makes sense.

Mac: 51:29

That makes sense.

Katie: 51:29

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I think that helps clarify what that post was saying, because it's hard to sit there and go. Yeah, that did suck.

Mac: 51:38

Yeah, but I think you're bringing a great sort of I don't know like. Notice your red flags, Get aware of what those red flags are for you, so that when you're starting to get into this cycle it can be intercepted, rather than you just being swept up into it sort of mindlessly, you know yeah.

Josiah: 51:59

And these, these, uh, these smaller things are much, much more difficult to identify. The big ones are, to me, are pretty obvious. If someone is clearly an enemy, like someone who's like hates you, it's not very hard to identify them or the way that they're wronging you. And I feel like your approach is a little different. With someone you're safe with in your own home or like a friend or like a coworker, your approach to that is going to be slightly different than someone like Ruby Bridges walking into school with people hating her.

Mac: 52:34

Yeah, steps two and three are largely internal, right Heartening heart, the way we're viewing people, but I would say it almost never stays that way. So hit us with the last part of the cycle, josiah.

Josiah: 52:49

Yeah, the last part is when we take revenge. This leads to us taking matters into our own hands and we get revenge, we retaliate, try to get, even try to get back at the other person for what they did to us. I think the word revenge can maybe be maybe word. There are obvious ways that you would get revenge. If someone wronged you, you could physically hurt them, you could sort of openly defy them. But there are also very there are like passive forms of revenge and these I think are a little more sinister because they kind of infect the whole system. Where someone has wronged us, we're not necessarily trying to destroy them or hurt them back.

Josiah: 53:43

I was using air quotes for those of you listening. But I can do things to manipulate, like give them the cold shoulder. I can choose to, not I can ghost, can like ghost them right To not like respond because they made me upset, or you know like there's a lot of ways to do that. But there's also things like gossip and slander and I think we use our words to get revenge. It's almost like second nature, more than we realize.

Mac: 54:22

Like.

Josiah: 54:22

Katie and her roommate.

Mac: 54:23

Right, that's what happened. That's what happened.

Josiah: 54:26

It happens, yeah, and ultimately, what this does. The sinister part of this isn't that you're necessarily hurting the other person. Yes, you are, but you're, um, re agitating this. Uh, this hurt in a way that continues the cycle because, um, um, the way I speak about someone when they're not there continues to amplify my negative feelings towards them, to where they become an even bigger enemy than they were in the first place. And yeah, so this fourth part of the cycle essentially re-engages steps two and three pretty continuously.

Mac: 55:10

And also gives them an opportunity or another reason to wrong you or retaliate again against you which perpetuates the enemy-making cycle, which is the exact opposite of what Jesus instructed when he says do not resist an evil person, which is the ideas. Don't mirror the behavior of the person who has wronged you. That's like step one when it comes to kingdom. Aikido is not retaliating or returning. Tit for tat, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

Katie: 55:42

Yeah, it's almost like when we take revenge, but we think what we're getting is closure, like I'm going to get back and this is going to put an end to it, but in reality it's just doing the opposite.

Mac: 55:50

Yeah, it's a continuation of it, not an end to it. Continuation of it. I like what you were saying, josiah, because I imagine some people when they hear revenge they're like I don't do that, I don't take revenge, that's such a strong word revenge, retaliation I don't do that. But I think you did a good job naming that. This can take a lot of different forms.

Mac: 56:15

I was doing some digging on this to try to like figure out how to name this dynamic and there's I came across a spectrum of intensity and impact when it comes to revenge.

Mac: 56:25

So imagine, like one end is low intensity and low impact, all the way to a form of revenge that is really high intensity and really detrimental in terms of its impact. And so, just to give you kind of like some examples, low intensity would be something like passive, aggressive behavior right, giving someone the silent treatment or cold shoulder, making sarcastic remarks or backhanded compliments, something like that, right. It's a very subtle form of revenge. Interestingly, more on the moderate or middle side would be something like gossip or slander, probably because you're sabotaging their reputation in some way and you're bringing other people in right. Whereas, like extreme intensity would be physical harm. What's also interesting is they put gaslighting in this category of high intensity, extreme intensity and extreme harm when you gaslight or manipulate someone into doubting their reality, and up there with you know, high intensity would also be physical revenge, and I think we do ourselves a disservice and don't reckon with our own brokenness if we just associate revenge with physical harm. You know what I mean?

Katie: 57:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing that sticks out to me as you're talking, is that revenge is just the idea of taking back power, or like balancing the scales, like as if we want to grab control, like it gives us the illusion of control. Right, here's what I'm gonna do with that. But again, in reality, I think, when we look at it, by taking revenge we're actually giving more power to the offense and to the person who wronged us. So, instead of healing, we're just actually remaining tied to the pain.

Mac: 58:18

Yes, and so part of the work is to, when you think about revenge, realize that it happens along this continuum and then to identify what does it look like for you If you're not a person who would like punch someone else in the face? I mean, that doesn't happen very often. Some people are yeah, I guess I've never been someone Someone has. Well, maybe it will still happen, I don't know. But my point is if that's your only reference point for getting revenge, then it'd be easy to go. I don't do that, Rather than going okay, what would it look like for you to take revenge when someone's wronged you and to become aware of that so that you can work against it Right?

Josiah: 58:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard work because by the time you get to this point, stopping the revenge happening either in your own mind or in the way that you speak about people, even in subtle ways it's difficult to stop it at this point you know like once it's already happened and that hurt is set in and you have hardened your heart and they're an enemy.

Josiah: 59:34

It's important to note, like how it works, because there that I'm sure that I gossip and slander Even people in my mind who quote unquote deserve it, because I can point to things that they've done wrong and it's very easy to sit there and justify it from a place where I'm not connected to them. I can look at them from a distance. I mean think, think about it, we do it with. Let's just take politicians Like it's really easy for us, Like I don't know. I often like I'm not necessarily saying everyone needs to check their heart if they don't like a certain politician. But think of how easy it is to take celebrities or icons and figures or political candidates. We justify saying anything and everything about them, right, because we don't know them, we're not connected.

Mac: 1:00:27

Some people had a negative reaction to Eminem earlier in this episode.

Josiah: 1:00:31

Yeah, check your heart.

Adam: 1:00:34

Thick skin soft heart. Thick skin soft heart.

Josiah: 1:00:38

Right. So like I mean, I'll bet we could even identify some ways that we like get revenge from towards people that we've never met.

Mac: 1:00:51

For sure and I think you're also touching on something that this quickly turns into a cycle that it's hard to get out of right.

Mac: 1:00:58

Someone wrongs us, we're swept up into this cycle of enemy making, where we've hardened our heart, distorted perception and getting revenge, and every time we then think about that wrongdoing and we get triggered by it. You jump right back into that cycle again and again and then think about this Imagine it's not just one legitimate wrong. The first wrong got you into this cycle, but now you still have to interact with that person, right, and so maybe it's a coworker or a neighbor or an extended family member. You still have to, like, interact with them. And now you've got this.

Mac: 1:01:32

You're in this flywheel, this enemy making cycle, and so every time you have to interact with them or associate with them, you've already got this distorted framework that's doing bad work and it just serves to continue and give you more reason to get caught in this cycle. Every interaction when you've got this distorted way of viewing things just gives you more reason to stay stuck there. What does that unlock for you? Like, when we think about this cycle of enemy making, what would you say? This just like unlocks for you.

Katie: 1:02:06

Yeah, I think for me personally, I think it always starts with looking at ourselves.

Katie: 1:02:13

And again, I think it'd be really easy for me to dismiss a lot of that by going well, I don't really have any enemies, I don't really take revenge, kind of like what you guys are saying.

Katie: 1:02:20

But as I really sit back and look at it and reflect on my own life, there's more subtle ways that this shows up. There's that smaller disagreement with my husband, or the frustrating interaction with a kid or a family member, and I can see all the places where forgiveness is not my first move and I can see all the places where forgiveness is not my first move and instead I'm moving closer to making meaning. That isn't there, hardening my heart, taking my response into my own hands and reacting out of hurt rather than allowing God to form me before I respond. So I think it's important to just take time to reflect on our own lives and our own relationships, like you said, mac, and just see, kind of, how this plays out for each of us. What are those? What are those little more subtle ways that that you see yourself taking, taking your hurt and your pain into your own hands and forming a response from that. Does that make sense?

Josiah: 1:03:09

Yeah, yeah, it starts with us.

Josiah: 1:03:11

Like it starts with yourself. Um, if you're, if you're listening to this and and your first thought is um, is the list of people in your life who need to forgive other people? You're probably not hearing us. Well, it starts with ourselves. I think it also unlocks a little bit. I can see the systems that I'm involved in and see how much this would help. I do see how much this would unlock for other people. I think about my kids. So my kids are.

Josiah: 1:03:46

I recently actually did this. I taught it as the cycle of violence because I didn't. I'm trying to help them see what it does, how their retaliations to each other sort of perpetuate this like a cycle. I have four kids. My wife has two kids. We're blending the families and anything and we're kind of in the thick of it right now and there's a lot of tension that arises and I remember sitting them down.

Josiah: 1:04:16

I remember sitting him down recently and for a couple of my kids I think it really helped unlock ways in which they see, like, how quickly they dismiss their own ability to um, help things get better because the other person doesn't like me. Um, they, uh, kids are really quick to like, dismiss all of that. Um, that I don't have to, that I don't have anything to do with here, like they hate me, so I don't really have to try. Um, but helping teach them that like, hey, you get mad at them, um, then you do something about it and then they get mad at you and then it perpetuates the cycle. Something about it, and then they get mad at you, and then it perpetuates the cycle.

Josiah: 1:05:00

Um, teaching them that there are thing pattern, the patterns that we can. We can disrupt these patterns through acts of kindness, um and uh, you know I have a couple of stories of wins that seem to really help. Um, so yeah, I think that there's a. I think this really helps. Um, if we just think about our own family systems and our own environments and the circles we swim in, we can see how this could help.

Katie: 1:05:26

Yes, if you put these lenses on and look at your work environment, your home environment, your extended family, whatever circles you're in, this can help us see things that we weren't able to see before.

Mac: 1:05:36

Yeah, I would second both of that, as I thought about this cycle of enemy making and I've been aware of it for you know, seven, eight years. It's like a just a renewed sense of how quickly this can happen if you're not careful within your closest relationships, or kind of what you were saying, katie. But then also like how it's happening around you, in between you and other people, and I even think of like our workplace, like if you're in a workplace where gossip is kind of part of the ethos, the culture, how easy, if someone else is caught up into the enemy making cycle, part of their revenge might be gossiping to you about that other person, right. And how, once you're aware of this, you can be an advocate to bring awareness to, not in a shaming way, but just be then an active agent towards liberating other people from this cycle, right? I think one other thing it just unlocks and I'm not saying this is a positive thing To me. It's quite depressing actually, just being honest, but just as like how this cycle of enemy making plays out societally or like globally.

Mac: 1:06:51

In many respects, I think this cycle of enemy making captures the history of humankind, honestly, like we have not been able to break out of it. This is the cycle we're stuck in One nation attacks another nation. The other nation reacts by counterattacking, often in the name of justice, they're defending themselves. Their counterattack then gives the other side more reason to keep attacking, which gives the other nation more reason to keep attacking, which gives the other nation more reason to keep retaliating, and around and around it goes this is you know what I mean.

Mac: 1:07:22

You just wrote a book on foreign policy.

Mac: 1:07:26

And of course, the goal is to at some point win the exchange, thinking that will be the end of it, but rather you're just deepening the fact that this other nation is your enemy. You're just solidifying that. This is the myth of redemptive violence and it's counter to the way of Jesus. It never works. This is what's happening in Israel-Palestine. To a large degree, this is what's happening between Russia and Ukraine, and I'm not trying to simplify it. It's a big deal when one nation attacks another nation, but at least we should have the wherewithal to kind of zoom out for a moment and think about the work that our actions or counteractions are doing.

Adam: 1:08:05

It's not working right.

Mac: 1:08:08

And part of the gospel is actually to free us from this cycle and learn the rhythm and art of forgiveness, so that we can move towards a place of reconciliation, even not just individually, but more systemically or globally.

Katie: 1:08:23

Yeah, how cool would that be if each of us could do this work in our own lives in a way that has a broader effect.

Mac: 1:08:31

Yeah, and the only way to do this work and this is what we'll be focusing on for the rest of the series is you've got to reclaim your agency. This is the key to get out of this enemy-making cycle is forgiveness, is a bold, audacious reclaiming of your agency. Instead of letting the other person, the person who wronged you, determine your emotional state or your response, you're determining how you're going to respond. Right, you're saying the wrong doesn't get to determine who I am or what I do next. They don't get to do that. I'm not a passive victim, I'm an active agent. I have volition, I have choice and I choose something different than this cycle, and this interrupts the enemy making cycle. Right, you've got to reclaim your agency and go. This person's wrong doesn't get to determine my next steps.

Katie: 1:09:22

Yeah, yeah, that's a good word and resonates with me, for sure. All right, we've covered a lot of ground, you guys. It's been a really good discussion. Let's transition into the Praxis section. It is the Praxis podcast.

Josiah: 1:09:36

Praxis podcast. There you go. Perfect, you found it this time.

Katie: 1:09:39

You found the right button, so let's talk about some practices that will help us take hold of this in our own lives. Maybe the first one to submit would be just to identify someone that you're struggling to forgive. This could also be a person that you just kind of struggle with or have a hard time loving. As I mentioned earlier, it might be someone you would call an enemy, but maybe it's just someone who gets under your skin and then, over time, there's those series of small interactions that build up and cause you to have hard feelings towards that person. It's really important, I think, just to be honest about where we see that happen, because we do all have it and it doesn't do us any good to pretend like we don't.

Mac: 1:10:17

Yeah, Get concrete and specific. Who is the person you're struggling to forgive? Josiah and Adam. You may remember this, but about whatever? Six years ago, we went through this entire enemy-making cycle and the process of forgiveness over probably a two to three month period of time as a staff, and each person on staff picked someone, selected someone who they were struggling to forgive, and I ended up picking two people, and having those two people in mind through that three month journey was so important. I don't think it would have done much work if I hadn't consciously said these are the people, this is what happened and I'm going to engage this process.

Josiah: 1:11:00

Yeah, it brings things out of theory and into practice. Yep, and get concrete.

Mac: 1:11:05

So identify someone you're struggling to forgive and then practice to is write down each stage of the cycle of enemy making as we've outlined it, and then just begin to journal about how that showed up with that person, right. What was the wrong? Write it down. Right or series of wrongs? Are they real or imaginary? Like? Write it down what is the state of your heart towards that other person as you responded to that wrong. How did it act on your heart? What is your perception of that other person? In what ways have you lost a sense of their dignity and value and worth? How have you dehumanized them? What glasses are you wearing and how have you taken revenge Either low intensity, low impact, all the way to, you know, jacking them in the nose. But write down how you've participated in this enemy cycle with regard to this person specifically.

Josiah: 1:12:05

Yeah, yeah, writing down is good. I think people dismiss journaling just because people don't like to, and also people don't always write things down with pen and paper anymore.

Mac: 1:12:17

Well, not Katie's mom. She's a big fan of journaling. It unlocks something emotionally. She told us on a you weren't here for that podcast, but we talked a lot about journaling and how it does something to our emotional wiring, so there is something really valuable about it, yeah.

Josiah: 1:12:33

I agree. A third practice would just be to do that again with someone else. Do step one and two about with a different person in your life. It's important for us to realize that this process does not conclude. I think we want we so want closure all the time with people and with things. And in reality, if we're going to continue to be shaped into the likeness of Jesus, we are going to continually have to submit this before God and be willing to go through these steps of forgiveness with everybody who wrongs us. We don't live in a vacuum where we can protect ourselves from hurt. That's what we would do if we had thin skin, is we would retreat back into our dens, essentially. But that's not the way we're called to live.

Mac: 1:13:32

Yeah, and if you really do the work of journaling all of this out with a couple people in a really specific way, that's what gives you the foundation or the awareness to do it more fluently in the moment when you have hard interactions with other people. So it's really a necessary step. So well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thick skin, soft hearts, friends. Next episode we're going to talk about how to get unstuck, and it all begins with one key step. So we're going to name and explore that step together.

Adam: 1:14:12

We hope you'll tune in and we'll. Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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