The Hidden Crisis of Human Trafficking

Katie: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. So today is a bonus episode. We're hitting pause on our current series where we've been discussing how to cultivate a healthy church culture, so that we can take some time to talk about the work that God seems to be inviting us to be part of as a church community in the area of human trafficking.Katie: 0:27

Human trafficking is a massive problem in our world today and it's actually a huge problem here in Wisconsin.

Katie: 0:32

The issue of human trafficking, and specifically sex trafficking, exists in every county across the state, and we believe that this is an area of injustice that truly breaks God's heart and, as God's people, what breaks God's heart should break ours.

Katie: 0:46

We also believe that God is at work in the world to right all that is wrong and that we, the church, are invited to be part of that work. So over the last couple of years, a growing number of people in our church community here at Crosspoint have developed a burden to make a difference in this area. They've been experiencing this restlessness or an unsettling of sorts in their spirit, and it's led to a conviction that they can't ignore what's happening in the area of human trafficking, and that has led them to get involved to actively resist it. And so, as this group has taken steps to faithfully follow God's leading, we as a church have gotten connected to an organization called Zateo Community. Zateo is a group that's doing incredible work to fight the evil of human trafficking and sexual exploitation in Dane County, and today we interviewed Brianna Saxer from Zateo to learn more.

Mac: 1:38

Yeah, and before we jump into that interview, I just want to maybe share a few things, say a few things at the top here. One is that our primary goal with this episode is education. The first step towards combating human trafficking is to educate people on it and build more awareness, and you'll hear that sort of theme in our interview. I'll confess that until Brianna came to our church and gave a presentation earlier this year, back in February, I knew very little and had a lot of misconceptions, I think, on this topic, and so I found her presentation incredibly enlightening and equipping, and our hope is that you'll land in a similar spot after listening today, just feeling more educated and equipped. And I also think if you're listening and you're not part of Crosspoint, you're just like kind of a fan of Praxis and listening. That is the reason you should keep listening, because it's not just about the group that's doing work in our community. This is about education. We'd love for you to walk away more educated and equipped. So that's the first thing. Our goal today is to educate you.

Mac: 2:39

Second thing is, if you are part of our community, we hope you'll prayerfully consider getting involved, so we have what's called a kingdom community forming around this work, and we're going to say more about that later on in this episode, but I would just encourage you right at the forefront, to create an open posture, open to how God might be speaking to you as you listen in on this conversation and how he might be inviting you to get involved. So, even if that means pausing for a second and just praying for openness, I would encourage you to do that. And then, finally, I want to provide a trigger warning. I'm learning how to be more trauma-informed as a pastor and, toward that end, I want to provide a trigger warning for our listeners before we dive into any content today.

Mac: 3:28

If you or anyone close to you has experienced some kind of abuse or exploitation, the content of this episode might be particularly triggering for you. And if that's the case, you have our permission and encouragement just to skip this one and pick up on our next Praxis episode. All right, so that's all I want to say by way of introduction. Let's jump into this episode on human trafficking with Brianna Saxer from Zateo welcome everyone.

Katie: 4:15

My name is katie and I am mac. Now, brianna, welcome. Is that who you want? Is that how you like to pronounce it, brianna? Am I saying it right? Yeah, okay, yes, so I believe you are joining us from steven's point today, is that right, correct? Yes, okay, so I okay. I sort of have two special connections with Stevens Point. The first is that both of my parents went to UW Stevens Point and they met there. That's awesome, so that's kind of cool.

Mac: 4:37

It was love at second sight.

Katie: 4:39

Yeah.

Mac: 4:41

I'm just joking.

Katie: 4:42

Yeah, I feel like it's sort of a I don't know fun part of my family history. But then also, before I worked at the church, I worked at UW System, the University of Wisconsin System, and so I got to travel to UW-Stevens Point for meetings and trainings and things and I thought it was so beautiful. Yeah, I was surprised. It is a really cute area. Maybe I shouldn't say I was surprised, but I guess I just didn't think much about it. When I got there I was like this is a stunningly beautiful campus. It's woods, the buildings are beautiful and old. They have this character. I just really liked the campus. Yeah, when you said surprised.

Mac: 5:20

It seemed sort of like you were expecting something less which could come off as condescending.

Katie: 5:24

Yeah, I don't know that. I had expectations.

Brianna: 5:29

Okay, yeah.

Katie: 5:35

But my lack of expectations were filled in positively Moving on. So we've gotten to know each other just a little bit. You came to visit this at Crosspoint last winter, but our listeners may not know you, so why don't you start us off by just sharing a little bit about yourself? Tell us about who you are, your family and maybe how you got into this work?

Brianna: 5:48

Yeah, of course. So I'm Brianna Saxer and, as you mentioned, we live in Stevens Point. We have only been living here about five years now. I'm originally born and raised from the Chicago suburbs and we moved up to Stevens Point from St Charles, illinois.

Mac: 6:05

Okay, time out, time out. So where do you land on the sports stuff? I mean because you're in Packers country, now you know.

Brianna: 6:15

I am not going to lie. So I am a Bears fan and a Cubs fan at heart. I'm sorry to offend all the Packers and Brewers people here. Yes, however, one of my good friends that I used to work with in Chicago her husband pitched for the Brewers, I think two seasons ago, so Jake Cousins, so yeah. So I was cheering for him when he was here. I think he's with the Yankees now. Okay, we'll take that.

Mac: 6:45

Well, we just lost about five listeners, but that's okay, I know, I know I'm sorry, but maybe you gained a few.

Brianna: 6:52

Yes, yes, yes, but yeah, so that is my heart. My dad probably would disown me if I said that I was a Packers fan, but I do enjoy watching football in general. So when the Packers are not playing the Bears, I am cheering them on. So I'm not like, yeah, we can be friends. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, we moved here. My husband is a firefighter that's what brought us up here. So he is a firefighter in Wisconsin Rapids and we have two boys, so AJ is 15 and Isaac is 12. And so, yeah, we love it up here. Similar experience to you. When we moved up, I had no idea what to expect, and we really do love it here. It's a great community. There's so much like nature preservation and I think that's kind of. I've acknowledged that in Wisconsin in general it's way better than Illinois and we just love being outside and just the historic nature of a lot of what we have here is. I absolutely love it. So it's a good community to be in.

Brianna: 8:00

I work in down in Madison with an organization called Sateo Community. We are a nonprofit that is building long term residential programming for survivors of sexual exploitation, and so I have been in this line of work. Prior to moving up here, I was on staff with an organization in Chicago that did very similar work called Naomi's House. In Chicago, that did very similar work called Naomi's House, and I started there in 2016, right when they were right at the ground level pretty similar to where Zateo Community is at right now and I was on staff and worked directly with the women. I was a direct care supervisor and I absolutely loved it and I got into that really very much a God story and I'll make it, you know, a quick synopsis, but I actually was a massage therapist for 13 years. I specialized in how trauma affected the body and got into that because of some of my own trauma and abusive relationships in the past and really just loved helping people try to heal from their trauma somatically, because that is a huge part of healing, and so in that, when Naomi's House was getting up and running, I was like I really want to be involved. I was planning on volunteering, attended a volunteer orientation, loved it, and, as I got to know Simone, the founder there, she just encouraged me to think about applying to be on staff and it was not on my radar at all. I did not think that that is never in my wildest dreams did I think that's where God was going to take me. And lo and behold, that's exactly where he took me and fell in love with it, and I could really relate to the women in a lot of ways.

Brianna: 9:55

When you've come out of abusive relationships, you understand how it really does shake you to your core in a way that other things just have a hard time touching, and understand how it really does mess with your perception of reality, your perception of self, your perception of God, your perception of other relationships, and how easy it is to just get sucked into somebody else's narrative of your life and your experience when you're in that relationship. And that was a relationship that from the outside, looking in, nobody would have noticed. Nobody did notice and we were a church going couple. People within our friendships and within our lives really had no idea until the truth came out and things got so bad that it was unavoidable.

Brianna: 10:50

So that experience and that testimony of how God shaped my life through that has really just been a building block to where he's led me and what purposes he's had for me and helping other women who have come out of similar and worse situations and knowing that there's hope on the other side, that this doesn't define you. It is just part of your story and it shapes you, but it doesn't define you. So that's kind of how I got into this line of work, and I really love empowering other people with the information to be able to not only heal themselves in a compassionate and loving way that really is modeled throughout scripture, but is oftentimes struggled to live out in our society and in our communities, and so just being able to empower people with those tools and those resources is what I love to do. So, yeah, yeah.

Mac: 12:00

Oh well, I am so excited to have you with us today.

Katie: 12:04

I have a question before you move on. Okay, I have a question before you move on. Okay, I have a question for you, brianna. When you said somatic therapy, did any of that include cold plunging?

Brianna: 12:14

That was not a thing that people talked about much back then. However, I did do hot rock and cold rock therapy, which is pretty similar in terms of, like, you put that along the spine and along your nervous to kind of reset your nervous system. So there was hot and cold therapy, but cold plunging was not a thing people talked about when I got into that line of work, but it is very much a somatic experience.

Katie: 12:40

Yeah, max is a big cold plunger. He just got some fancy, so yeah, max a big cold plunger he just got some fancy.

Mac: 12:47

Yes, I. I started a couple of winters ago like every morning walking outside in the freezing cold and nothing but my boxers, and then I'd plunge in this tub.

Katie: 12:54

Well, it was like a trough right. Yeah, pretty much.

Mac: 12:56

And um, and it totally reset my body in some powerful ways, and but I was very much reliant on the weather to bring the water temperature down and just recently I bought a water chiller and now I have a cold plunge in my house and I do it every day.

Brianna: 13:15

so I love it.

Mac: 13:17

That's awesome yep, I'm a little weird but well, apparently you're part of.

Brianna: 13:22

I don't think it's weird, yeah.

Mac: 13:23

Yeah Well, all that to say, I am really excited for you to join us today. When you came this past winter and gave your presentation, I learned so much. I learned a ton, and one of my biggest takeaways was just how important education is in this conversation. I remember in one of the little packets you handed out it talked about CPR and how.

Mac: 13:51

In like the 1970s, CPR wasn't really a thing and so people didn't really know what to do when there was an emergency the same way they do now. And so CPR training started among medical professionals, and then from there it broadened and now almost everybody knows at least something, at least part of it, when there's a medical emergency. So it very much starts with education, and you just know so much about this. So I'm excited to have you educate our audience today. But let's start with this question what is human trafficking? Because in your presentation I know I realized very quickly I had a much too narrow definition of what it is, so maybe let's just start with that. When we use this phrase human trafficking, what are we talking about?

Brianna: 15:02

Yes, so human trafficking is a very, as you mentioned, it's a very broad scale. It exists on the spectrum. It covers everything from indentured servitude to labor trafficking to sex trafficking, so there are lots of different avenues in which that falls under. So a lot of people immediately tend to think of sex trafficking when they hear human trafficking, but there are so many other facets to it and if you, it depends on where you live in the world and your community, which one is more common or which one may show up in different ways. So labor trafficking is one of the biggest ones throughout the world and that is a major, major issue.

Brianna: 15:33

Even in terms of like the farming communities, labor trafficking is still a huge issue and gender servitude exists in terms of like, maybe somebody comes from a different country but they say you know, if you work for me for this number of years, similar to like the, I wasn't trying to get you know, so it's that if you do this I will give you xyz, but then that xyz never comes. There's always something more to pay off, another debt to get, and it just keeps adding up. Um, and there's no accountability. There's no like. Hey, you said it was going to be this and now it's become this. It's all a lot of times under the table, very disguised, and this can even exist within family systems too. So this isn't just like a stranger exploiting somebody. This can exist within a family or an extended family, and that is it's far more common than people realize within family systems. Even so it is. It's a pretty broad network. Sex trafficking is a part of it. Labor trafficking is a major part of human trafficking, as is like the indentured servitude and forced labor.

Mac: 16:57

And how would you go about, like noticing that you know in a community, if you're saying, hey, this is super common that you know in a community, if you're saying, hey, this is super common, like I remember sitting in your presentation, being like what you know, kind of like yes, so one.

Brianna: 17:14

It depends on where you are encountering the person being exploited. So, depending on whether you're a first responder, or whether you work in a school, or if you work in a church, or if you work at a grocery store, or if you're, you know, working at a salon, you're encountering these people in different aspects of their lives and so the red flags are going to be able to point out and be like I think that person is being trafficked. A lot of times people are hiding in plain sight because it's not like they're wearing something different or identifiable in some way, shape or form. Um, there are the red flags. More show up when you are within a relationship or you're encountering this person on a regular enough basis. Now, if you are, that's not to say like if you're going to a shopping center and you see two people walking together and she seems to be disengaged, not able to speak for herself, that could be an abusive relationship or it could be exploitation. It's really hard to tell without the context of knowing those individuals. It could be that that person also is struggling with dissociation and not present at the moment, or having severe anxiety or depression, like that's where it's really hard to just identify, not knowing the person and just saying that person's being trafficked.

Brianna: 18:55

There's been some scenarios where I've been like the library, or hotels, common places where or hotels, common places where meetups happen, you know public places where I've seen some things, where I'm like that looks a little fishy, you know something feels off here, and I've called local police and said this is what I saw. I'm not sure if you want to kind of patrol the area and see what you see in the days to come or weeks to come, because there's patterns. Again, hotel, service industry, those are people who see it all the time and may not even realize it. So it depends on where you're working and how you're encountering these individuals Uber drivers, that's another one. There's different training and red flags depending on how you're living your life and where you're encountering human, other human beings, really, um.

Brianna: 19:49

So there's all sorts of different resources out there, like there are trainings for first responders, there are trainings for teachers, there are trainings for nursing and hospital staff, um, and you can access these, you know, available a lot of times online, like safe house project. They have so many different resources. Locally there's an organization called join the movement JTM. Um, she's in Wisconsin, her name is Dawn. She's created so many different toolkits depending on what you know, what line of work you're in or where you're volunteering and serving. So those are just some, some overviews of how it may not be easy to just be like that person's being trafficked. You know it's not like observing a kidnapping, you know.

Mac: 20:37

Right.

Brianna: 20:52

However, there are things if you're in the context of a relationship where some I know this person or see them regularly enough for instance, if my kid came home and or one of their friends came over and they suddenly had a bunch of designer items they'd never had before that to me would raise a red flag Because, within sex trafficking industry specifically, a lot of times pimps or traffickers will pay for or give or entice those that they're exploiting with high price items, and this is twofold it draws in a buyer for lack of a better term at a higher price because this person has a status that that buyer might be interested in. So if they have coach, if they have Dior, if they have designer items that they wouldn't normally have, I would ask some leading questions. Be like hey, where'd you get that? And if the answer seems off to me, or is like, hey, where'd you get that? And if the answer seems off to me or is like, oh, one of my friends got this for me, or my boyfriend or girlfriend got this for me, I would be like how does that person have access to the money to give that to you? So you'd ask them leading questions. If someone who's typically really engaged, like, as a youth group leader, somebody who's typically engaged or has a certain and may not even be engaged in the typical sense, but at least showing up and being present and suddenly they start pulling away or shutting down or having a change in character. And this is what's tricky is at teenage years. Those can be normal teenage developments or they can be red flags. And that's where asking, that's where relationship really comes in. Asking those questions, stepping into those difficult conversations without judgment and with concern, you know being like, hey, I, I see these things help me understand what's going on. This is this isn't what I've seen from you in the past and I'm trying trying to understand, you know. So entering with curiosity instead of shame, um, and so there's just we have these in danger cards, um, through the table community, you can access them on our website and it just kind of goes through a little explanation for some of these things. But it really does depend on how you're encountering the individuals and what relationship you're in with them. But I would really encourage anybody who works with youth please get educated and aware on what it looks like within your demographic, whether you're a teacher or you're a nurse, or whether you're a youth group leader or simply a parent or aunt and uncle or grandparent.

Brianna: 23:37

Trafficking happens among adults. However. Statistically, most victims and survivors said that they began being exploited between the ages of 12 to 14. So it starts very young and then continues on into adulthood, or it becomes so normalized to them that they don't realize that it's a problem or it's abuse or it's exploitation. Again, as I mentioned, like when you're in that type of relationship, it messes with your reality. It messes with how you perceive the world and yourself within it. So from the outside, looking in, somebody might be like how would they think that that's normal? Well, if it starts at a developmental age, it is very easy to think that this is normal.

Brianna: 24:24

For instance, at our event that we held in May, we had a survivor leader, sula Leal. She is amazing speaker, writer. She has a book. Her exploitation began when she was a toddler and she had no identification for the fact that this was a problem and this was not normal. And so when you grow up and the people closest to her had no idea it was happening, it was happening within the context of a babysitting, so her mom was going to work and dropping her off and thought that she was safe and fine and everything was good. And it was not. And so this is the danger is it happens behind closed doors, so hidden away, and the kids often experiencing it don't know that this is what they're experiencing, they don't understand that this is exploitation, and so that is why not only educating ourselves, but educating the youth on what this looks like, not only to protect themselves, but also to identify it in their friends.

Mac: 25:29

Now I know that Zateo focuses on sexual exploitation specifically, so it's a much broader thing. Before we transition and get into what that like that definition and how to spot it, I remember you sharing a story when you were here about labor exploitation and you visiting like a salon and having like whoa, this is happening right here. I'm wondering if you could share that, just to give our listeners like a concrete story of here's how to kind of open your eyes to it.

Brianna: 26:00

For sure. So this happened when I lived in the Chicago suburbs. I was going to get a mani-pati. I had gone to the same place for many, many years and most people there did not speak fluent English, but it was close to my house, they always did a good job, it always seemed clean, I didn't see any problems. I didn't see any problems. And when I, at this point in time, I was aware of sex trafficking and not of labor trafficking, and I had gone to a training and started to understand that that was different than my definition of sex trafficking.

Brianna: 26:36

And so, showing up that day, I, or as I was in that training, I started going through oh, my gosh, my, the person who always does my mani pedi really never speaks to me, doesn't really make eye contact, just ask what color, um, and just goes about her business. Um, also, I was never allowed to give her the tip directly. Um, I always had to give it to the gentleman who owned the salon at the front. It always had to go, all money had to be changed through his hands. And so I started raising my gosh, I've been going to this place for years, never thought about this, never. I was like oh, he's the manager. He handles the money. He'll give her the tip later, like no big deal, kind of like you know, if you're going to the restaurant, like if I'm putting the tip on my credit card, I don't think about the fact that my waitress or waiter may not get that. You know, um, and and that's another place. Restaurants can also be a place where labor trafficking takes place too. So just something to think about, um and so as I went in for my mani pedi that day, um, I just was like I'm just going to ask a couple of questions. I always went to the same girl. She always did no, it was the same person every time. So I built a relationship enough with her over the years where I was like I'm just going to, instead of tuning out, I'm going to start to ask a few questions without raising any problems, cause that's another thing. You have to be careful that you're not drawing attention to them, cause that can put them in danger by their exploiter.

Brianna: 28:07

So, as we were sitting there, he was nowhere around at the time. So I just was like hey, you've been working here for a long time, do you like it here? You know, like I'm so glad that you're still here, like kind of approaching it from that perspective. And she was like oh yeah, I'm, you know I, she doesn't speak very good English, so it was broken English. Essentially she was saying I've been here a long time. I said do you have any plans, like now that you've been here a while, getting established because this was like five years now what your next steps are? Do you know where you're going to be or are you going to school or anything like that?

Brianna: 28:41

And her aunt long and short answer was my uncle brought me here and so I am paying him back for bringing me here. So she's working for her uncle and again, as I mentioned in the training and I'll explain this a little bit people can use terms of uncle or aunt or family member and they may not be a biological aunt or uncle or thing, so it's hard to know if they truly are family or if it is just a term um used, you know, of familiarity, you know, um, and this happens even in the sex trafficking industry, domestically, all that kind of stuff, um. So essentially what I'm gathering is her uncle is the owner. He brought her over here. She's working for him for an undetermined amount of time to pay off a debt that is really difficult to name or weigh, you know, um. And so then I at the end I purposefully tried to give her the tip to see, well, maybe I've just gone along with it, maybe she will take it. She's like oh no. And she got really nervous, like oh no, and then directed me to give it to her uncle and I was like, okay, this meets, you know, three or four of the red flags that I should.

Brianna: 30:00

So I did end up calling our local law enforcement and I said I don't know if you guys do any investigations along this line, because it does depend on where you live how they handle those investigations.

Brianna: 30:10

I'm like, but this is something that I'm concerned about. I've recently gotten some training in I'm not sure if you have any prior, you know tips on this particular salon, and so they did take the information and as far as I know, and as far as I know, it has changed ownership. I don't know what that means per se, but it was investigated, it was taken seriously, and sometimes you can't just go in there vigilante and change things up. You do have to sometimes leave things to the people who are trained to handle the cases, and that can look different depending on your area, whether it's local law enforcement, or if you have an anti-human trafficking task force in your area or a human trafficking detective in your area. Try to find out who specifically handles those cases, because just calling a general tip line, sometimes it can get lost in the mix. So figuring out who locally handles those types of cases is really key.

Mac: 31:15

Adam, that feels like an important word for you because you're prone to going into places flipping tables, you know.

Adam: 31:21

Yeah, it is what it is. I was not sure where that was going.

Katie: 31:27

I thought you were going to ask him to figure it out and put it in the show notes. It was totally off. I love it. Okay, so Zateo focuses specifically on sex trafficking, right, yep, but when I before I went to the presentation that you gave here, when I hear sex trafficking, I think like the movie Taken Like big, dramatic, sensationalized but I know that it's often not sensationalized like that, as you already kind of alluded to. So maybe you can just kind of fill this out for us a little bit what does it look like more?

Katie: 31:59

I'm sure those types of situations do happen, but more often. What does it look like?

Brianna: 32:05

Yeah. So to flesh that out a little bit yes, kidnapping does happen. However, statistically it accounts for about 1% of human trafficking cases, so we're looking at a. I know it's a very small percentage and this is part of the issue of survivors and people currently in exploitation not identifying themselves as experiencing it because it doesn't look like what they see on TV.

Katie: 32:31

Even the people experiencing it aren't identifying it as trafficking. Yeah Wow.

Brianna: 32:36

Exactly so. This is where education really is so key, not just for us out in the public, but for this information reaching survivors, this information reaching people who are currently being exploited. I can't tell you how many times I've spoken with a survivor who has, just recently, or even within the context of that conversation, just understood that what they had experienced was exploitation or sex trafficking. So this is I never want to discount the fact that some people have that experience of being kidnapped, being taken against their will. It does happen, but it is such a small percentage that if you're only looking for that small percentage, you're going to miss so many more, especially in our community of Wisconsin and the community of America at a broader level is it is far more relational. So this might look like they have a boyfriend or girlfriend who has said okay, I am going to take care of you and I'm going to cover everything for you and I love you and everything's going to be okay.

Brianna: 33:56

Traffickers prey on vulnerability. So whatever your vulnerability is, whatever anybody's vulnerability is, whether that be having a hard time paying bills, whether that be emotional insecurity, whether that be self-image, whatever that vulnerability is traffickers are really really good at figuring out and identifying that and then playing to that vulnerability Like I am going to be here for you. Nobody, everybody else, has abandoned you. I'm never going to leave you. I'm never going to.

Mac: 34:31

You know, whatever it is, whatever that promises lots of promises 100%.

Brianna: 34:40

And then they're like oh my gosh, this is my dream come true, this is the person I've looked for, this is the person I've been praying for, even Um. And suddenly, once they're in that relationship, it's hey, I've done all this for you, I need you to do this for me. And that can look like hey, we have all these bills that are due. You're doing X, y, z. I can't cover all this. I'm going to need you to go. I set you up with this app. I'm going to need you to go meet this person. Sometimes they might not even know what they're going to meet that person for until they're in that situation, and sometimes it looks like drugging against their will and they have no memory of it.

Brianna: 35:22

One story I tell in the human trafficking awareness 101 that I came to Crosspoint for is there's a survivor here from Wisconsin. She told her story and she was exploited by a friend who she had a crush on once. One time it happened and he drugged her. There was rape involved with other people. They took pictures and she didn't know it, and so what turned from an abusive situation became exploitation. They said if you don't do this again, if you don't do what I say I'm going to share these pictures throughout the school. I'm going to share these pictures with your family. I'm going to share these pictures with your dad's boss. And so then it was well.

Brianna: 36:10

I have to do these things because I don't want anybody to know what happened to me, because they think they're to blame. They think they did something wrong. I shouldn't have gotten in the car with him. I shouldn't have gone in the house with them, I shouldn't have whatever it be. We blame ourselves, and that's a coping mechanism of when I'm not in control, the world feels really scary, if I can say I did something to make this happen. It makes us feel more in control, so that is a survival mechanism that then ends up working to our disadvantage. And same thing in abusive relationships. If I hadn't said this, he wouldn't have done X, y, z. If I hadn't have done this, my parent wouldn't have whatever the, you know, whatever the outcome is. We blame ourselves because it gives us a sense of control.

Brianna: 37:01

And so that's what happened with her. She was exploited for a number of years and nobody knew until her family moved away and it didn't happen again. She never spoke of it until she was an adult and was like that was sex traffic, like I was sex trafficked. This happens even in the context of marriage relationships, of visual images being shared against their will or without their knowledge, and people might recognize them from wherever it's being shared and then the whole truth comes out. And so sex trafficking can look a lot of different ways and a lot of times it's relational and it can happen within family systems.

Brianna: 37:42

So this is the one where it feels the most shocking to people or the most appalling, maybe, and all sex trafficking is appalling, but when you hear of a parent trafficking their kid or an aunt or uncle or a sibling, something about that relationship feels more sacred to some degree and therefore it feels a little more guttural in our response of like that can't happen as often as you think it does, but statistically it accounts for 30 to 50% of trafficking survivors. Is family, within a family system, trafficking happening? And, as I mentioned earlier, with some survivors it can happen so young that it's not really identified as trafficking within their lives because it's normalized, it's just a part of their experience and they don't realize what they've been going through. And this happens to boys and girls A lot of times. People our society tends to focus on girls being exploited more than boys, but within our society as it stands right now, the number of boys being exploited is quickly catching up to the number of girls being exploited. Hmm.

Mac: 39:01

Yeah, and it seems like a common feature. Maybe two common features are one vulnerabilities and then maybe the exploiter preying on those vulnerabilities by grooming them in some way. Yes, Is that right?

Brianna: 39:16

Yes, Yep, that is absolutely correct. So the grooming process can take anywhere from a couple conversations to a couple weeks to sometimes a year to sometimes a year. You know, it just depends on the context of the relationship and um, and maybe how the tactics they're using to gain the trust of their victim. Um, and so it can. One of my favorite books, um, written by a survivor. It's called In Pursuit of Love. It's written by Rebecca Bender, um and she um, um.

Brianna: 39:57

Her story is that she met. She was single mom, met a boy um or a guy um, and she was living at home with her family, had a great family system um support system around her. She was top of her class, super, not somebody you would identify as being vulnerable in that sense. But she lacked. She wanted somebody to love her. You know she wanted that relationship.

Brianna: 40:20

She wanted a father for her daughter and he came along and just basically swept her off her feet and her family all loved him Like it was not somebody you would expect. And then he moved her out for his job, moved her with him out to Vegas and within 24 hours of being there he trafficked her um. She had no idea where she lived, she didn't have her identification. He had control of her daughter. He basically took her and said, hey, it cost me this much to move you here. I've been supporting you, I'm going to continue supporting you. This is how we make this work. And just, she had no idea what that meant until it was too late. Um and so, and they were in a relationship. For it wasn't a quick you know, like they had been dating for a significant amount of time in which her family had met him, like she felt, like she knew him. So this can happen quickly or it can happen over a longer term.

Mac: 41:17

And with that story you alluded to earlier, with the young woman who was raped, and then pictures were taken and then those pictures were sort of used as leverage. If I remember correctly, that started with someone kind of like inviting her over for help with studies, right, it was kind of like in a school context.

Brianna: 41:41

It was in a school context, so not for studies. And I'm going to pause for a second because I want to give. I always want to give survivors. She has shared her story within the state of Wisconsin, so I want to. I have her name here, so I want to make sure that I am able to give her story the credit it deserves. So give me just a second.

Katie: 42:03

We can always put anything in the show notes too.

Brianna: 42:06

Yes, exactly, sorry, I need to figure out where I have this in here.

Mac: 42:11

No, that's fine I just remember there was a grooming piece that was eye-opening for me around. There was obviously an intentional effort to isolate her right.

Brianna: 42:21

Yes, exactly so, it was as simple as she got a ride home. So that was, she had a crush on this boy, um, and he asked her if she wanted a ride home. Um, so, teresa Flores, there it is. Um, so she's a survivor here in Wisconsin. Um, I just wanted to make sure that I gave that the credit it's due.

Brianna: 42:51

But, yeah, so, teresa Flores, she has shared her story and she, simply, a boy that she had a crush on, gave her, said I'll give you a ride home. And when he started going the wrong way, red flags were raised and then they pulled up to a house and again she was like, uncomfortable, but all it took was him saying I like you. And that was enough for her to go. This guy that I like likes me, you know, and as a teenager, like, sometimes that's all the validation you need in a given moment. And, and so that was enough to get her inside the house of like, oh, okay, I want to hang out with him.

Brianna: 43:29

Never in her wildest dreams and she think that would like. Cause they drugged her without her knowledge. Um, so drugging can be done in a Coca-Cola, it can be done in a Sprite, it can be done in a water Like it is really easy to cover up that taste. It doesn't have to be within the context of having an alcoholic drink, and so she just was having a soda and was drugged and exploited and had pictures taken of her.

Mac: 44:01

You know I've got three kids, three boys. My oldest is going to be a freshman this year in high school and then my second one is in that awkward stage of middle school, which is super fun. But part of this is learning to have conversations with my kids so that they're aware of how some of this takes place. I know we have a lot of parents who listen to this podcast, grandparents in our congregation that spend time raising their grandkids.

Mac: 44:34

What would you say I know you've alluded to. Here's some of the red flags to pay attention to, but could we double click there and just fill that out a little bit more for the grandparents, the aunts and uncles, the parents who are listening in. Here are some things you really want to be aware of as you're raising your kids.

Brianna: 44:51

Yeah, the first thing, like red flags are good to be aware of. However, the conversations leading up to that are really where the gold is Um giving, empowering your kids, your grandkids, those within you know, those that you lead in whatever capacity that feels safe or looks safe or that somebody else may trust. They're not going to, they're going to dismiss any red flags that they might feel in their gut and in their heart because, well, somebody else trusts this person. Or my mom and dad said this person is okay, or other people in my friend's group don't have a problem with this person. So I'm just being weird, you know. So if we empower the youth, the kids, with the tools of how to identify unsafe behavior and grooming tactics, that is key and this can start from a pretty young age.

Brianna: 46:07

I've been having conversations like this with our kids. As I mentioned, I have a 15-year-old son and a 12-year-old son and I've been having conversations with them about unsafe talk and unsafe behavior from adults and peers from the time they were two, three, four, like and it's eight. From the time they were two, three, four, like and it's eight. Talking to them in an age appropriate level of hey, if somebody comes to give you a hug and you're not comfortable, it's okay to say no, thank you. You know, if somebody is having a conversation with you and you're not comfortable with the context of the conversation, even though they're an adult you're in a kid you can say I need to use the bathroom or I need to. You know I need to take a break. Or hey, I got to go get my mom. You can find a way out of that conversation. And even if that adult gets angry at you for leaving the conversation, it's better to have them be angry at you temporarily than dismiss any feelings you're having. Because if you learn to dismiss that discomfort, you will continue dismissing that when you're older, even if you were wrong, even if you're uncomfortable in that conversation, for whatever rhyme or reason.

Brianna: 47:19

Like, say, you know somebody is talking to your 15 year old and like oh, do you have a girlfriend? You know who are you dating these days? And your son's like I'm uncomfortable with this. They don't have to yell at the person, they can just say yeah, yeah, and then walk away and come get you and say this made me uncomfortable. I'm not really sure why, but this made me uncomfortable. So it doesn't even have to be a huge red flag that they're avoiding. But they're learning to listen to when they're uncomfortable. They're learning to identify that and come, get somebody they trust.

Brianna: 47:53

And that is key to be able to pause and step away from conversations or people or contexts that they feel uncomfortable in. And they're not given that tool and given that permission from a young age, they're going to have a hard time implementing it later and so having those and if you have teenagers and you miss that boat and are like I didn't have those conversations when they're young, what do I do now? Have an honest conversation with them now. Just be like hey, this is something I'm learning, we're learning together. I don't have all the answers, but has there, you know, whenever you're in a conversation or in a context or in a relationship, when you feel uncomfortable, I hope you know you have permission to walk away, whatever, whatever the context is, and this can have. I mean, I've heard of situations where it was youth group leaders who were the abusers, and so this is like. This is really important to teach kids because they might think that they're in a safe relationship or in a safe context of like this adult is supposed to be a safe person for me a teacher, whatever that is they need to know that not everybody who comes across as safe may be safe to them, and so just being able to identify that and have that conversation and again, doesn't mean our gut instinct is always 100% right, but we learn to listen to it Um, another tool to give them is teaching them about internet safety. So, whatever your rules are on social media, there's so many different ways predators can get ahold of our kids that we can have all of all of the tools, all of the boundaries and all of the rules in place, and yet there may still be ways for people to gain access to our kids, our grandkids, those within our care, and so if we're not having the conversation of hey, this is why we have this rule, because here's some things that happen in real life.

Brianna: 49:59

One story I tell in our human trafficking awareness training is when my older son was 12. This was during the COVID pandemic. So he was. Everything was on lockdown. The only interaction he had with his friends was through his phone. We had a lot of boundaries around it. We even have a system called the Bark Alert, which I highly recommend to any parents out there, anybody taking care of kids. Basically, it works in the background of your kids' devices and alerts you when there is something fishy or something that like, for instance, if my son texts me I have a headache and I say, hey, go take some ibuprofen, I get an alert on myself. So, like, that's how good it is. So he was on, he was playing Among Us with his friends and he one of the girls in the conversation had a friend that she invited into play. All the kids in this group thought this was an in real life friend, thought that she knew him. That the story was. He went to the neighboring middle school and so everybody just thought he was an in real life friend Over the course of a couple weeks of this person interacting with them in non-alarming ways.

Brianna: 51:18

Like I said, I have this bark alert set up. I had never gotten any alerts on this person whatsoever. All of a sudden one night he said I'm spending the night at my aunt's house who lives nearby. You guys, we all should sneak out and meet up at this park that was just down the street from us. I get a bark alert and my son comes to me because he also knows what red flags to look for of like, hey, this person I've never met in real life also is now enticing me to come sneak out of my house without my parents permission at night, like if he's staying at his aunt's house. Why can't we all meet up there during the day, when our parents are home and know where we're going? You know, um, and I'm I'm a little uncomfortable because, again, I don't really know this person. This feels weird, um, and so, needless to say, bark alert Alert came up. We have a conversation.

Brianna: 52:10

I then am able to have a conversation with this girl's mom hey, did you know she's dating this boy? This is his name. Do you know him? No, did not know she was dating him. Do not know him in real life. We're able to call the local police. Turns out he was a 40-something-year-old man from about half an hour away. Was he a trafficker? I don't know. Was he a predator? Most definitely. So.

Brianna: 52:36

This is the way it happens, is they build themselves into a friend group where everybody now trusts this person and assumes well, so-and-so knows them. Well, so-and-so knows them. Well, they know about these people from this school, so they must really be from here, you know, and they know enough information to sneak in under the radar and then build into that familiarity, that relationship. They think they have a friendship with this person or relationship with this person. So, training our kids in what to look for, and it's not about scaring people, it's not about going to your kids and saying, oh my gosh, we're destroying all devices. Like this is the worst. You're all going to get kidnapped, like somebody awful exists online. These are the realities, but it's about empowering them with the right tools to know what to look for so that they feel safe, coming to you when something feels off and being able to have that conversation regularly.

Brianna: 53:34

You know, every week we do a social media check-in and our kids have a lot of rules around what social media looks like and how they're involved online, but that doesn't mean it's learning how to use the tools that are available to them in the context of I have a safe person to talk to about this, and so we have a check-in like did anything happen this week, whether in person, or did anything happen this week where there was a conversation that you were uncomfortable with?

Brianna: 54:01

Are there any conversations your friends are having that you are uncomfortable with? And this can pertain again to real life and so, and online and so and it's not a you need to tell me or you're going to die. It's a let's share these things, let's process these things, because sometimes things that have happened aren't dangerous but are uncomfortable. Or sometimes it's a yeah, that is a weird conversation that person had with you. Let's go have a conversation with them and figure out what's going on. You know, do we need to draw other people into this? And so, like, for instance, that conversation with that girl, do we need to draw other people into this? And so these are the things of the more empowered our kids are to identify the red flags themselves, the more they're going to invite you into that conversation. Because it's not a I'm going to get in trouble. It's a. My parents are aware of this and want me to be aware of this. We're working together as a team to keep me safe.

Mac: 54:57

Yeah, like, what do we do about this? Um, I would say about once a month I get a text from someone who could. Their entry point is kind of like texting and it's like hey, wrong number, kind of a thing and then yeah. And then the follow-up is like well, where do you live and can we be friends? And you're like, yeah, knock it off yeah you have gotten some.

Katie: 55:20

yeah, oh yeah, yep, I think those are really good tools that you covered, and maybe related, would you add, just giving your kids language. What I hear you saying is how this normally happens is grooming, and grooming is insidious, and so in order to combat and protect against that, we have to sort of make sure that we're extra aware of trusting our instincts, what feels uncomfortable, but it sounds like increasing that awareness. Pivotal to that awareness is having language to be able to name when something doesn't feel right, or even knowing what's right and and and wrong yes, and to pull out.

Mac: 56:14

Something else I'm noticing that she is describing is a relational trust and regular conversation, so that we're just normalizing. It's not, it's you're not responsible for when this stuff happens. It's going to happen and we need to be able to talk and we need to be able to talk about it. We need to be able to identify it and talk about it and tag team it together.

Brianna: 56:31

Without shame.

Mac: 56:32

Right.

Brianna: 56:33

Exactly, yeah, exactly. I mean just another personal example. We had somebody in our lives who was charged with grooming and somebody that our kids knew, and so we were able to have a conversation and be like, hey, we were not anticipating this from this person. I know you're not in contact with them all the time, but this is somebody you know. How does this make you feel? Did you ever have any situations with this person that you may not have identified at the time but now, in hindsight, have?

Brianna: 57:06

We've had this conversation so regularly that it didn't feel weird, it didn't feel uncomfortable, it was just normal conversation of like this is happening and let's talk about it, and even like subsequently in one of my son's appointments thereafter. Our younger son is autistic, so he has therapy regularly and his therapist said do you know what grooming means? Like, do you know what is autistic? So he has therapy regularly and his therapist said do you know what grooming means? Like, do you know what that means? And he's like oh yeah, and he was able to like, rattle off an accurate definition because we've been talking about this since he was young, you know. And so this is giving them language to be able to explain and identify, and that's one reason our 12 year old was like he would never have done that with me because I know too much, you know. Like that was his actual response.

Brianna: 57:51

Like you might be right, like you don't come across as somebody, like that would be a safe victim, because you do know a lot. You know this would be identifiable to you and so does it completely safeguard and bubble wrap our kids. No things could still happen, but it gives them tools to be able to empower themselves, because we're not there 100% of the time. God is, but we're not, and so we cannot promise that we can keep our kids safe 100% of the time. But we can say, hey, I'm going to give you this tool so you can use this, so you can help keep yourself safe in certain situations, so you can identify when something may be dangerous and even if you're wrong, it's okay. It's better to be safe than sorry.

Mac: 58:39

Well, it's just been so fun to have you on as a guest. I love the work that you're doing at Zateo Community. My understanding is that word Zateo means to seek in order to find.

Brianna: 58:53

Yes, I love that, yep, and it's directly from Scripture when Jesus says you know, seek first the kingdom of God. So that seeking with the purpose of finding it's not just a wandering, it's not just a I hope I'll find it, it is. I'm seeking this, knowing standing on the promise that God has just wanted us to find, this you know that God has put it in front of us.

Mac: 59:20

So, yeah, yeah, I love the heart behind that and the work you guys are doing. Thank you so much for being with us today. Just real quick for anybody who's listening. How can they stay in touch with you? Support Zateo. We're going to have more to say about that after our interview ends, but how could people stay in touch with you? Yeah, for sure.

Brianna: 59:45

So, depending on like, if you have questions, just in general, you can email me. It's Brianna at ZateoCommunityorg and that's B-R-I-A-N-N-A at Zateo. Info at sateocommunityorg Either one. If they just have questions or inquiries, if you're looking to get involved, you can go to our website. There are so many different ways to get involved. We have a tab at the top that says get involved and whatever that looks like for you. If you're not local, definitely reach out. There are, you know, organizations nationwide. I would highly recommend looking at safehouseprojectcom. They have so many great resources and so many ways to get involved.

Brianna: 1:00:37

And if this is something that's on your heart, pray about what God may want you to do, because oftentimes we look for answers that are already there, like how do I get involved with things that already exist within my community, which are great? However, in this realm of human trafficking, sex trafficking, labor trafficking there are. So there's so much work left to be done and God may have something specific for you to do that you may not have been thinking about. So when I look at so many of the different organizations and things that are out there, it started with a. You want me to do that, why, you know. So pray about what it is God may want you to do, because it may be something outside the box, maybe something you weren't expecting. And so, yeah, we serve a powerful God who has such a big heart for those who are exploited, and he wants all of us to be working in His kingdom in some way, shape or form. So this isn't a sideline sport, you know. So get on the field, but figure out what position God has you in.

Katie: 1:01:45

Beth Dombkowski. Awesome, and I'm sure we'll put the website in our show notes too. But I out what position God has you in.

Katie: 1:01:51

Awesome, and I'm sure we'll put the website in our show notes too, but I wanted to mention Zeteo, z-e-t-e-o right, yes, yes, awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining us, brianna. This was awesome. I know I learned a lot and I know that others in our community will really appreciate everything that you shared. So thanks, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been great. Well, that was a great conversation. I really enjoyed listening to Brianna when she came here back in February and I learned even more just now, so we hope you enjoyed the conversation as well. If you are listening and wondering, okay, I've learned a lot, but now what can I do? Or feeling invited to get involved in some way, why don't we walk through just some practices? What would you say? Mac are some of the steps people could take if they want to dive in deeper.

Mac: 1:02:40

Yeah. So this first one is, I think, primarily for those who are part of our church community. I know we have listeners beyond our community, but for those of you who are part of Crosspoint, I would say number one is you can join our kingdom community. So we're starting a kingdom community around human trafficking and I should probably give a quick explanation of what a kingdom community or a KC is. Very simply, it's a group of people who are committed not only to one another but to joining God's work in the world in some specific area. And it's obviously that second part joining God in a specific area that makes that is sort of the heartbeat of a kingdom community.

Mac: 1:03:22

We have tons of groups of people at our church who come together but they often don't have that outward facing. Here's where we're joining God at work and those groups are great. We have small groups where people are supporting one another and studying scripture and all that's awesome. But a KC is specifically focused on doing life together toward a specific end and we've got a handful of them at our church. We've got mentoring KCs for kids in our school district.

Mac: 1:03:47

We have a racial peacemaking KC and we're doing work around it with an organization called Bridge Builders, to rehabilitate neighborhoods all sorts of great work but we have a group of people who have been feeling an increased burden around this area of human trafficking and have been in relationship with Zateo, and now we have a larger group of people that are coming around, coming together to form rhythms of how can we support each other and support this work. And so, if you are listening in on this conversation and going, man, my heart is stirred up. Don't ignore that. We have a group of people that are sharing that burden, sharing that passion and wanting to do something about it.

Katie: 1:04:26

So I forget who they should contact.

Mac: 1:04:28

So you know um. I forget who they should contact, is it?

Katie: 1:04:30

Stephanie Boguszewski and Kevin Knutson my parents are part of that group, actually and they just got through that book that she mentioned um in search and pursuit of love.

Mac: 1:04:39

I think she said it was called yeah.

Katie: 1:04:40

They're reading through that as a Casey right now, and then they're exploring how to be involved with Citeo.

Mac: 1:04:45

Yeah, so I mean they're doing some educational work together as a group, so growing in that regard and also figuring out how they can better be invested and engaged in the work.

Adam: 1:04:54

You can find these groups on our website, by the way, if you're interested in that.

Katie: 1:04:58

Yeah, maybe another practice is just talking to family and friends. We talked a lot today about the importance of awareness. If you're married, start, you know. Start by talking to your spouse so that the two of you are on the same page. Talk to your kids so that they can stay safe. If we want she mentioned that, the starts, what she said like the 14, like 12 to 14 typically I mean that's crazy to me.

Katie: 1:05:20

So if we want our kids to be able to understand when something's happening that feels weird to them or makes them uncomfortable again, they need to be able to identify and trust those instincts and have language to be able to name it and tell someone. So I have a couple of books I know I mentioned. I have a couple of books I read with my kids. I don't know if we can put those on the show notes, but just like kind of starting with a basic understanding of how to talk to younger kids about this. I think spreading awareness, not only to protect your kids but even their friends, like be aware of signs, so that you're just increasing the overall knowledge base and empowering those younger than us to be able to kind of know what's happening and identify anything that might be problematic.

Mac: 1:06:06

Yeah, and my kids are a little bit older than both of your kids. You know, my oldest is 14 and then we have 12. And, dude, cell phones are changing everything and we know this. But like, in some ways, it's great I can especially as my kids are involved in more activities, like I can contact them about when we're picking them up and there's just ways to communicate, like all of that is really great. But, man, there's a whole other shadow side to phones and technology that just raise all sorts of concerns and you've got to be able to have conversations with your kids around naming and being able to name and identify and have some awareness around those putting limits on what they can do. Maybe some parameters.

Mac: 1:06:50

She mentioned Bark. You know we're able to track our kids like where are they? There's Life 360, just different things that you probably should have in place if you have young kids who have cell phones to know where they are, what they're doing, check-ins around social media. You know our kids don't have social media. At this point they're starting to bother us about it because a lot of their kids are. It's crazy to me as I talk with our kids, most of their friends have social media and have zero parameters around it. Yeah, so it's just it's. I don't know if we're doing it entirely right. I think we're trying to err on the side of being a little bit more conservative about what we're giving our kids permission to do, just because of all the ways that it can go wrong. But trying to educate our kids on don't talk to people you don't know, limit how much you're on your devices, all of those things you got to start early before it gains momentum and kind of spirals out of control.

Mac: 1:07:47

Indeed, I'm scared for that yeah it's not fun and you know, the more I'll just name this, the more I talk to parents who have kids who have cell phones, the more it really comes down to modeling for them. You know, I can't tell you how many times I myself or talking to a parent they're like, yeah, I don't want my kid on their phone, but then it's like I'm on my phone, so you've got to model an appropriate. If you want your kids to have an appropriate relationship with technology, you have to take the lead on modeling kind of what that looks like, all right, and then, finally, I want to maybe share just a practice or an encouragement.

Mac: 1:08:25

If you're not part of Crosspoint and you're just a fan of Praxis and so on and Brianna mentioned this but figure out what's going on in your location. We're doing the work here, but we would encourage you to start doing the work wherever you happen to be. And again, it starts with education. You can educate your church staff, your volunteers, your congregation, your family, your kids, and then perhaps there is an organization like Zateo that you could partner with in your area, and so I'd really encourage you to look into that. So, maybe, big picture, to kind of close out, you guys and you heard Brianna tear up a little bit as she talked about this but God is a God of justice and we're to be working with God in the world toward that end, and today we introduced some of the work that we're trying to do in the area of human trafficking, so that you can be more educated, but also, as Brianna challenged, you to prayerfully discern, if you're to be part of this work alongside of us.

Katie: 1:09:26

Yeah Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed today's episode as much as we did. Next time we're going to discuss another nutrient we can put into the soil to create a healthy church culture. We hope that you'll continue to tune in.

Adam: 1:09:41

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts, you.