Over-functioning & Under-functioning

Mac: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We're in a series on emotional maturity and how it is essential to discipleship. We believe that Jesus had more EQ than any other person that has ever walked the planet and consistently embodied emotional maturity. So if you're going to grow as a disciple of Jesus, you must also grow your emotional maturity To get at this. We've been talking about anxiety. Anxiety often causes us to be emotionally reactive and impedes our ability to embody emotional maturity. So today we're going to continue our conversation about how anxiety shows up by discussing over and under functioning. We hope you enjoy it.Josiah: 0:58

Josiah

Welcome everybody. My name is Josiah.

Katie: 1:00

I'm Katie.

Mac: 1:01

And I'm Mac

Josiah: 1:02

and this is the Practice Podcast. Hey, today to get us going, I have a book in my hand. The book is called the Six Conversations by Heather Holloman, and Heather is a professor at Penn State. Like a creative writing professor, but she noticed something in her classes. She noticed how terrible people are at connecting with each other and referencing things like the loneliness epidemic that's happening in our country, that people are more connected than ever but feeling more isolated than ever as well. So she wrote a little book based upon some research she did within her own classes, and her theory is essentially that one of the reasons why people feel so lonely is that they don't know how to have good conversations with people. They don't know, they're not equipped to create meaningful connections with people in their conversations. So she just writes some really practical tips on how to do that. But I thought for today, at the back of the book, she has like 100 conversation starters that she has noticed have helped her students connect with her and with each other, just asking good questions that get at personal values and something deeper than just surface level. So for today, here's our question what is one thing that you like to do the old fashioned way?

Katie: 2:30

I would probably say making bread I like to make bread the old fashioned way. I've got my sourdough starter.

Josiah: 2:37

What is the old fashioned way for bread?

Katie: 2:40

Not buying it at the store, so making it yourself and not only that, but not making it with yeast, but actually just using the starter, which is flour and water and a lot of people. So this became really popular during COVID right. All of a sudden you heard of all these people making sourdough and it's great if you know someone who also makes sourdough and they have what's called the starter, which is like the fermented stuff that gets it to rise. But I didn't, and so I made my own starter, which literally just means you have like flour and water and you stir it and you add a little bit more, like a precise amount of flour and water, every day for like 10 days.

Mac: 3:19

And then you have a starter.

Katie: 3:20

And then you have a starter.

Mac: 3:21

Oh, interesting yeah.

Katie: 3:22

It ends up just kind of fermenting and getting really bubbly, I started my own starter, so I and it did at one point die, I think after like two years. And now I do have someone else's starter. But hey, that's impressive.

Mac: 3:32

Some people have starters that are like hundreds of years old that have like been passed down through the generations. Yeah, you can buy those on like eBay, oh wow.

Katie: 3:40

Yeah, if you go online, people will sell you there, and because the longer that starter is in existence like, the stronger I guess it gets.

Josiah: 3:46

No, nice.

Katie: 3:47

So yeah.

Josiah: 3:50

There are restaurants you can go to that will talk about how old their starter is, so you could enjoy the bread without having to know the family. That'd be cool. That'd be cool to look up.

Mac: 4:01

Yeah Well, and you and my wife Josie went to a little like sourdough clinic that my mom hosted a few weeks ago. And now I've been reaping the benefits of all things. Sourdough bread. Sourdoughs have been a big hit in our house. They're so delicious. We made naan for an. Indian dish that I made. Just I'm loving it.

Katie: 4:24

Yeah, sourdough's great. She sent me a picture of the naan. Yeah, it looked really good.

Mac: 4:28

You know one thing I do the old fashioned way, and I don't do this a lot, but when I shave like a clean shave, I do it the old fashioned way. And by old fashioned, yeah, I use a safety razor. So it's not like the cartridges where it's like you know, plastic and multiple blades, it's like I don't know how to explain it. It's like an old safety razor that's weighted and you have a single blade on both sides and I have a badger brush with a little dish and I like foam it up Very nice.

Katie: 4:59

So no handle.

Mac: 5:00

No, it has a handle. It's not like you'd have to like Google it. Google safety razor, and you'll know what I'm talking about. My oldest son turned you know, he's 13, almost 14 now. But when he turned 13, I got him his own safety razor and his little, a brush and a dish. And then this past summer we'd started noticing some like unwanted whiskers and so we had. We had a fun morning like teaching them how to do it and don't cut yourself.

Josiah: 5:29

When you say the word whiskers, I just I think of my grandma when I was a little kid. Oh gosh Gross. And so when you say whiskers, I just picture the long hairs on my grandma's face.

Mac: 5:41

Yeah, it's a facial foliage that looked a little awkward, so we had to teach him A foliage. But yeah, I do it the old fashioned way.

Josiah: 5:48

That's cool. Yeah, I think for me something I like, the old fashioned way is if I'm journaling, I like to do it with pen and paper. I don't mind jotting thoughts down on a phone if it's quick or, you know, if it's something more extensive, but yeah, if I'm just journaling thoughts or feelings, writing it out on paper I feel is more effective, feels more authentic.

Mac: 6:15

It's funny you describe it that way. Okay, yeah, there you go.

Katie: 6:18

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

Mac: 6:19

Yeah, I can appreciate that.

Katie: 6:21

There's something about like helps you process. I think if you're actually writing it out, it feels like you're connecting with the words more.

Josiah: 6:27

Yeah.

Katie: 6:27

Yeah, adam, you're a journal, or do you agree?

Adam: 6:30

Yeah, for sure this isn't super old fashioned, but I'd say the same for books like Kindle versus physical book. Definitely enjoy physical books more.

Katie: 6:41

Yeah, Well, speaking of being old fashioned, we're on a series on emotional maturity. Perhaps kind of goes the opposite way. I feel like emotional maturity is more commonly talked about in more recent times.

Josiah: 6:55

Yeah, no, but let's reframe that, because we're literally connecting this to the life of Jesus.

Mac: 7:01

So nothing's like an ancient future thing.

Josiah: 7:03

Nothing could be more old fashioned.

Katie: 7:05

To Shay Josiah.

Josiah: 7:07

Than emotional intelligence. I will give that to you.

Katie: 7:10

So, speaking of being old fashioned, we're in a series on emotional maturity right now and how it's essential to discipleship and man. We've covered a ton so far. We've talked about self awareness, self leadership, social awareness and relational management, and then we jumped into this entire discussion on anxiety, or emotional reactivity as we're calling it. We've looked at how anxiety causes us to become emotionally reactive, which then impedes our best attempts to embody emotional maturity. So just a quick review here before we jump in. We've named where anxiety shows up. We did the episode based on Steve Cuss's book. He talks with the four spaces. One is the space within me, which is internal anxiety. The second is the space between me and another person, or relational anxiety. The third is the space in another, where I noticed someone else is anxious. And the fourth being the space in others, or emotionally reactivity within a group of people. And then we named how. So we talked about the where and then the how. How. Anxiety shows up in three ways Fight, an attempt to lower my anxiety by changing someone or something else. The flight response, which is an attempt to lower my anxiety by running away from the problem or person. And then the fake response, which we named as an attempt to lower my anxiety by pretending to be nice in a conflict or just appeasing so at the conflict goes away. And then in the last episode we talked about triangles. A triangle is formed when one person becomes uncomfortable in a relationship with another and pulls a third person in to manage the anxiety in that original relationship.

Mac: 8:47

Like if I said your handwriting isn't very good in a DNA class. This happened this past week and it was hilarious. Katie comes up to the whiteboard and does this little diagram and her handwriting was pretty good, because usually it's not that great and I made a comment. I was like, wow, that your handwriting is great and she got.

Katie: 9:10

No, you said, your handwriting has improved.

Mac: 9:11

Has improved and she like doubled down. It was like no, it has not, it has been the same. And at one point she reaches for a. Cameron is like Cameron, agree with me? I was so great. So in front of the entire classroom I was like, okay, we have a triangle now and I kind of had a teaching moment. It was really funny.

Katie: 9:29

I think Pat even said if you listen to the podcast, you'll know what Katie's doing right now, which is creating a triangle. And I wasn't even holding out that my handwriting was good.

Mac: 9:36

I was just holding out on the fact that it has remained consistent. Yes, consistently bad. It was an interesting argument.

Katie: 9:43

It was a good example, but today we want to get into one final and common way. Anxiety shows up and that's the over and under functioning. So let's start with this question what is over and under functioning? When we use these terms, what are we getting at?

Mac: 10:00

Yeah, let me kick us off. Over functioning is when I do for someone else what they can and should be doing for themselves. And, by the way, when I use the word do, I'm not just talking about tasks. I'm talking about taking responsibility for how someone else is thinking so, their beliefs, their values, convictions, mental models, things of that sort, and their feelings, their emotional state. So over functioning includes taking responsibility and doing tasks for other people that they should be doing on their own, but it also includes sort of their thinking and feeling. Over functioning is when I think, feel or act for another in a way that erodes the other person's capacity for ownership and effective action, to kind of get us on the same page. So I came across a list of some common ways that over functioning can show up. I thought it might be helpful to share this. It's a sort of a compilation between Roberta Gilbert, her book Extraordinary Relationships, and then another book called Resilient Leadership 2.0. So here's what over functioning can look like Excessive worrying about someone else or their problem, that's over functioning. So if I'm worrying about someone else or their problem, jumping in and doing work that belongs to another, that would be over functioning.

Katie: 11:26

I've never done that.

Mac: 11:29

Taking over someone's job without being asked, that's over functioning. Taking responsibility for how someone else is feeling that might be an example of over functioning. Advice giving, taking charge of someone else's life, thinking you know what's best for someone else that's a symptom of over functioning. Having goals for others that they don't have for themselves over functioning. Expecting other people to do it your way when there's more than one way to do it, talking more than listening, is often a sign of over functioning. And I'll just confess to you, as someone who struggles with over functioning, that's kind of like one of my defaults when I become emotionally reactive is I'll launch into over functioning. The end result for over functioners is often burnout, sort of a deep fatigue that goes beyond just a nap in the afternoon or even a fun weekend to recharge. It's like this chronic fatigue that sets in when you've been over functioning for a long time. That can't be easily fixed, and so over time, if you're a chronic over functioner, like I have been in certain seasons of my life, there's this accumulative exhaustion that sets in that, I think, in the end results in sort of bitterness and resentment towards people who aren't doing what you want them to do. So I don't know if that's helpful definitions, some common ways it shows up and then I think one sort of byproduct of over functioning is just exhaustion, which can then contribute to relational bitterness and frustration and resentment. What would you guys fill into that? How has this showed up for you?

Josiah: 13:16

I think this shows up in parenting a lot. I would assume that most I shouldn't say most, I would say often our definition of good parenting probably would fit into the category of over functioning. It's my job to protect my kids from anything that could go wrong in their lives. It's my job to make sure they succeed, and that desire to want them to succeed can turn into anxiety. To make sure that they succeed no matter what, even if I'm doing it in a way that's unhelpful to me and them. So I think that I think one of the ways that this shows up is probably an inability to let your kids fail. So if I am, if I'm not going to over function, that's going to mean that they will most likely try something and fail, or they'll show up to school and something wasn't done because I did not do their homework for them, because they refused to sit down and do their homework, even though I reminded them multiple times. You know the overfunctioner might be like. Well, I can't let them fail. I feel anxiety that my kid might fail, which then makes me feel, maybe, that I'm a failure here, and so then I may just sit down, I'll do their homework while they're in bed and I'll just get it done for them quick so I can send them to school, and then they won't fail. And then I manage my anxiety by doing more than what is required of me. I think that's one way it shows up for sure.

Katie: 14:47

Yeah, that's a great one.

Mac: 14:48

Yeah, and that happens in terms of, like, pursuing goals or being responsible with homework, and also, I think, in manifests and friendships, or getting hurt like. The more my identity is wrapped up in the success of my kids as a parent, the more likely I am to sort of interject and put myself in scenarios that prevent them from failing or experiencing hard things, because ultimately it'd be too hard for me. And so ultimately, I think what you're sharing, josiah, is important because notice, the pivot isn't genuine care for my kids, their growth and maturity, it's actually my anxiety around what they might experience and how it might impact me.

Josiah: 15:31

I think it takes a lot of it's just probably worth noting. It takes a lot of self-awareness to realize that I think that most of us go around, right, we have defaults and we walk around and we think we're responding out of love and really we're responding out of our own anxiety. It takes a lot of self-awareness and humility to admit that.

Katie: 15:52

Yes it's difficult? Yeah, yeah, it certainly is. Yeah, I can think of an example. That's sort of probably the classic doing for someone with they should have done for themselves. So I've had a number of jobs before I've worked here at Crosspoint and all of them have entailed supervisory capacity in some way, shape or form Impressive. In one of those jobs I'm going to ignore that comment In one of those jobs, someone who reported to me had to write some policies and the process for writing these policies was really cumbersome, really complex, like we're probably talking close to like 50 different steps and every step had like a very specific way things had to be done and submitted and like down to the font size. And having worked in this arena for a while, I was pretty familiar with that procedure. But this person was somewhat newer and wasn't overly familiar with the procedures that had to be used. And she also happened to be someone who wasn't great about like asking for help or admitting when she couldn't figure something out. And looking back, I see how I big time stepped into the over functioning role, for one I think I had I did have anxiety about not it going well. I mean, okay, we had like millions of dollars in federal funding relying on getting this right. So there was kind of a lot of pressure there. But I think what happened is I assigned it to her but then I just sort of slowly started doing more and more pieces of it myself and by the end I was doing almost all of it myself, which resulted in her just kind of taking a backseat and then me getting resentful that I was doing it all myself, right, Yep. And so what John has said here's your responsibility. Let's have an honest conversation about what you think you're able to do and maybe what you're not able to do or where you need help here. Take this book and read it and research it and try to learn these procedures and come ask me where you have help and maybe, given the weight of it, maybe we do more check-ins or I am more involved than I would otherwise be, because certainly I'm not just gonna go hey, if you mess it up, we're gonna lose all this federal funding, yeah, whatever, like. That's not realistic, but what I should have done is had a clear conversation about expectations and then held her accountable along the way. That would have been not only better for me, but also better for her, because she was left confused as to what her responsibility was.

Mac: 18:10

Yeah, and probably ultimately didn't learn how to do that work when you did it for her. It sort of robbed her of an opportunity to learn and sort of fumble through it her own and figure it out Right.

Adam: 18:22

Right.

Mac: 18:22

Right. So it's fun to hear also how you have an imagination for how you do it differently. Going well, I would probably have clear conversations around what here's. This is high stakes, so I'm gonna have to check in more often, but here's what you're going to do. If you ever get confused or hit a wall, reach out, you know, but it's gonna be more collaborative than just like independent work. Yep, Right.

Katie: 18:45

Exactly.

Mac: 18:45

Yeah, and I've done this too. You know, back when my good friend Jodi Bean was on staff he was one I hope he's listening oh, I love Jodi, you know, he's a really good friend of mine and we shifted to more of a team model of leadership where we tried to share authority as much as possible while also having like defined roles of here's what we're responsible for. And, unlike you, katie, I don't even remember what the thing was that bubbled up, but I just remember it was like a pressure cooker a lot of responsibility, and it fell in his area of responsibility, not mine and out of the pressure of wanting it to go well, needing it to go well, I stepped in and sort of took over. The difference, I think, is because Jodi and I were close friends and because we talked a lot about how to work together as a team and had this language of over functioning. He named that for me. Afterwards he sat down and said hey, here's what happened. It was a lot of anxiety in that situation. You jumped in and sort of took over, and here's how that impacted me. It made me feel crummy, it disempowered me, it made me feel like you didn't trust me to do a good job. And then my response was like, well, why would I lean in and, like you know, put forth my best effort of max, just going to, like you know, anytime things get tense or anytime there's a ton of pressure, he's going to like rise up and take over anyway, like it further prevents me from, like you know, leaning in the way. I know you want me to and you know what he was exactly right. He was totally right. By stepping in, I disempowered him and revealed a lack of trust and also the impact that had on him is probably more passivity in the future than what I would want, which is like leaning in and you know taking responsibility. So sometimes it requires a close relationship and that kind of courage to say to your supervisor like, yeah, you did this and it hurt, you know.

Josiah: 20:54

Yeah, I like that story because it's one thing to say, oh, we don't want to respond out of anxiety, and sometimes we do that by over functioning. I think it's another level to show the show sort of the fruit that it bears, right Like it messes with relationships. They cause someone else to feel disempowered and kept them from being able to handle something themselves. So I think that story is a nice example. We're not just talking about something heady. This is like practically, it actually erodes good relationships.

Mac: 21:30

Yeah. So here's a question. You know we've talked about what overfunction is it's doing for someone else, what they can and should be doing on their own, including their thinking and feeling. Why do we do this? You know, under pressure and when we're experiencing anxiety. Why might? What are some common reasons people might begin over functioning?

Josiah: 21:52

I think to get at this you almost have to go a layer deeper into identity. So we use phrases in some of our discipleship curriculum and talks about fear, guilt and shame and how these become sort of false identities in which we operate out of. And when it comes to the category of shame, I think that just shame is just the belief that I'm less than like my, I'm not enough on my own, and so I end up having to, I end up operating in ways that are unhealthy because I'm not able to just accept who I am and be who I am. And I think that for a lot of people, over functioning is how they get their worth and value in their life. That me being the one who does everything, who fixes everything, who makes sure everything gets done, is a way that, like it, motivates me, because I know that I can get worth and value from that.

Katie: 22:57

Yeah.

Josiah: 22:57

Right People are going to praise me for over functioning.

Katie: 22:59

Yeah.

Josiah: 23:00

Think about it in a job you know you're. You're a job in in which you were just telling the example of your job was structured in a way that almost would have forced you to over function. If you didn't, it would have affected you just as much as them. So, yeah, I think there's an. The issue is that we get our identity and our worth and our value from the things that we're doing in order to to gain love and affection for people.

Katie: 23:28

Yeah, and that's exactly the word that came to my mind. Like in our society, you do things well and you get praise for it, yeah, and so this is really a great observation, Josiah.

Mac: 23:39

So some people can actually get life, a sense of their value, worth and significance from all the stuff they do and accomplish that maybe doesn't even belong to them Right. There's like this hustle that that they pivot out of to get life. You get a sense of validation both internally and externally.

Josiah: 24:00

Yeah, and if I stopped, if I stopped doing everything that I was doing, even just thinking about that for an overfunction or may bring anxiety. Yeah, like, if I stop, what would happen? Like what if these people around me, I mean, I think of like.

Mac: 24:14

I stopped getting my sense of life from what I can achieve and do, and I stopped getting a sense of validation from other people for doing and achieving those very things. And that leaves me really feeling empty and vulnerable. Yeah, another one and we hinted at it is just the fear of failure. I think a lot of people might overfunction because they're afraid of letting something fail. So you mentioned this in the realm of parenting. Both of our examples that we shared Katie and the one that I shared was also in a workplace. You know, I'm seeing this with my kids a little bit. They're now getting into the age where they're experiencing group projects at school and this is a common dynamic, because you just kind of get thrown into a group of people that you don't necessarily always get to pick and inevitably there's varying degrees of like motivation within that group. Some students have a high degree of responsibility and want to get a good grade, and you know that's their default, and other kids probably don't care at all. And oftentimes what happens is is the people who don't really care, don't really engage, and those that care a lot end up doing all the work and everybody kind of gets the same grade. And this happens in churches too, you guys. Commonly what happens is is like a project or initiative will be put forward to the congregation Like God is up to something here, let's step into it. Very few people step it up, and so the default is oftentimes the message to staff is that we can't let things fail, and so the staff, sort of you know, heroically put their selves all this energy into it at the last minute to make sure it doesn't fail, and oftentimes there's some key superstar volunteers that do the same, and it just contributes to this 80, 20, more like 90, 10 rule where you have a 10% of the people doing 90% of the work.

Katie: 26:05

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Another one tied to that would be just power and control. Like if I, if there's a group project and I have strong feelings about how it goes and what the final product looks like, well, obviously, the best way to ensure that my preferences play out is to do more of the work. I think this happens, you know, not only in workplaces, but really I mean many contexts. Think even like family gatherings, for example. Let's say we're all talking about who wants to host, like Thanksgiving or Christmas, and I say, well, I'll host. Okay, well, I'm deciding, like when we're getting there, what we're eating, maybe what activities we're doing. If I'm the one leaning in and doing more of the work, I get to decide more of what something looks like. And this ties back to the example I just shared of the policies. Me taking care of that policy meant I got to decide how it went.

Mac: 26:59

Yeah, you get a bigger.

Josiah: 27:00

Say right, yeah, yeah, for sure. Sometimes letting someone else do it means they will succeed and I have to be willing to like I guess it can. It could feel like I'm losing if someone else is succeeding. So if I allow someone else to do more work than it's work that I would normally do, obviously I shouldn't say obviously, but to me that should be an empowering feeling to say, hey, someone else did it, you're empowering someone else, right? But even in the example that Jody felt like he was disempowered in this story, that implies that if he was going to succeed, well then. There's power taken from one person to another. Yes, and I think that passing of power for some people can feel like a loss.

Mac: 27:58

It can, because you can't white-knuckle it right. If you're clenching to the outcome and squeezing it to death, other people aren't going to be able to collaborate or contribute and they're not going to feel empowered. And it does feel like loss, but in the end it isn't.

Josiah: 28:13

Yeah, of course it isn't right. That's where self-sacrificial love is what we're going for. But yeah, I think that the feeling of the loss of power is often because someone else may do it a different way than you do, and that loss of control can feel a little bit. I wouldn't have done it that way. I even feel it sometimes if my kids are at home working on a project and I'm helping them and I'm like, ok, my idea is clearly better than theirs. It can feel like that Like OK, if they'd listened to me, I know they'd get a good grade or whatever, but it's disempowering to them for me to make those decisions for them and even if their idea is, in my head, a worse idea than mine, it's good for them to be able to do it and they may end up getting a good grade, and I just have to be willing to let that go.

Katie: 29:08

Or they may not, or they may not, and that goes to Maybe they'll fail.

Josiah: 29:11

I don't know.

Mac: 29:12

So one of the things we do when we become emotionally reactive at least some of us is we tend to overfunction. But there's another thing we're not just talking about overfunction today, we're talking about underfunctioning. So, Josiah, tell us a little bit about underfunctioning.

Josiah: 29:31

Yeah, yeah. So, just as we have people who are those of us who want to overfunction, in certain ways, overfunctioning is implying that someone else is underfunctioning. So if one person is doing more, the other person is doing less, and if you think about it like it's like a pie, right, there's only so much pie, this functioning pie. If I eat six slices of pie, well, that means there's only two slices left for someone else. So we have to think about it in this way. We don't think about it in this way for a lot of things, right. Sometimes it like winning and losing. Those are false binaries that we operate under, but when it comes to functioning, the way to think about it is there's only so much of it, and when I do more, that means someone else is inherently doing less.

Mac: 30:21

Yeah, another image that comes to mind that is commonly used as like a seesaw right, when when two people sort of are doing the same amount, it's going to be balanced, but if someone is doing more right, the other person is going to be doing less and it throws that equilibrium off.

Katie: 30:38

They're going to hit the ground really hard.

Mac: 30:40

But I do like the pie analogy.

Adam: 30:43

In the context of pie I enjoy over functioning.

Mac: 30:47

Pizza eating, oh my goodness. Yeah. I'll take six slices.

Josiah: 30:54

Yeah, so right. If I don't do something that I can and should be doing myself, I am under functioning, so we're allowing the behaviors of others to diminish our own functioning. So here's there's another list just what Mac was using with the over functioning. Here's some more examples of what this may look like. Under functioning can look like not making decisions. This could be at home, at work, in relationships, allowing someone else to do all the decision making, constantly seeking advice, especially when they need to be thinking through things on their own, asking for help when help is not needed, things that you can clearly do yourself. You're asking for help out of anxiety of doing it wrong or for any other number of reasons. Not speaking up or sharing your point of view in a group of people. Keeping that to yourself is a lot of anxiety. Maybe someone who listens a lot more than they talk in conversations as an example could be an example of not just being a good listener, but could be under functioning, maybe living without any goals or aspirations in your life, so sort of an inability to set goals and no desire to follow through on them, habitually letting others have their way and letting their own.

Mac: 32:29

Which we spiritualize in the church. You know what I mean.

Katie: 32:33

That person must be so selfless.

Josiah: 32:35

Right, yep, not taking the initiative in your life, maybe adopting a weak or helpless persona and allowing others to think that you're helpless and need help all the time, and this is a big one believing that others are responsible for your own feelings. So, yeah, what are some maybe some more practical examples in our lives that we see some stuff from this list playing out.

Katie: 33:04

OK, you guys might laugh at this, but I kind of under function when it comes to cleaning our house. I have my share of things that I'm responsible for in our family. I tend to help the kids with their homework and other school stuff and activities and making sure they're fed, they're bathed, whatever they're engaged in social activities. But my house is just not a priority for being clean and it's not filthy. But if I have some free time, ok, we both work full time, we have three small children, so life is busy, and if I have some free time I would rather spend quality time with my kids or get outside or read a book with them or by myself Make sourdough bread.

Adam: 33:48

Then like scrub toilets.

Katie: 33:52

And for my husband, alex, it is more of a priority and so he just naturally kind of vacuums and changes bedsheets and does all of those things. And there are times OK, you guys, I could probably count on one hand the number of times I vacuumed in our house and there are times when he had to express like, hey, this is an area.

Adam: 34:16

I wish Alex was here, I know.

Katie: 34:18

I know it's probably not fair to him. I'm trying to be fair on how I characterize it. I mean, if you told me that I had to go home today and clean my house top to bottom, I would feel really stressed out and the idea of like, oh well, having a clean house is worth it for me, like that doesn't go through my mind and so it's much easier to underfunction because I'd rather do other things.

Josiah: 34:36

Yeah, yeah, and you're enabled to do that something, because I'm guessing Alex is very, he's a pretty clean person.

Katie: 34:44

He probably likes things cleaner.

Josiah: 34:46

And so it's easier just to allow him to do it.

Katie: 34:48

Yes, he enables me.

Mac: 34:50

I'll give a work example. I mean, one thing that I've noticed about my leadership over the past five years is we do things very collaboratively and we work together as a team and that's great. I don't want to change that at all. But I have noticed that there are times when there's decisions that need to be made that are complex and tricky, and my default is to want to get other people's input around that and kind of handle it as a team. And there have been a few different occasions where I'm like, yeah, and I know I'm ultimately the one that needs to like bear responsibility, make a decision on own, and whether it goes well or not, so that would be an example, I think, for me that I have to be aware of is I can often like go back to that team leadership model to escape taking responsibility for tough things at times and sort of hide behind a collective decision when really I'm the one who needs to make it. Does that make sense?

Josiah: 35:53

Yeah, it seems to me it's almost like you're feeling the anxiety and it's almost just like, hey, can you guys take some of this anxiety with me so I don't have to bear it all on my own.

Mac: 36:03

Yeah, and some of that is by design, because we are to bear the responsibility of big decisions and leading together as a team. So some of that is great. But there are other times when, like no, you look at the job description, you look at the thing that needs to be decided and it really isn't a team thing, it's a Mac thing. And I need to be willing to step into that, knowing I could get it wrong and it could be costly, you know, yeah, so I think a lot of husbands might experience this too. So there are times when things will get really intense at church and just require extra output. You know, and I would say, in non-stressful times, my wife Josie and I we have definitely a team approach to doing things at home, even though I work full time and she doesn't. You know, we've had a lot of dialogue about what kind of things she'll do and what does it look like for me to be present at home, et cetera. But when things get really busy at work and I can easily get sucked into that and then begin under, functioning at home Like some of the ways that I'd normally show up as a team player begins to slip and slide. The good news is and most people don't know this about Josie, because she's just smiley and sweet but she is feisty. So if that is like yes, you know this about Josie, so, and I'm grateful for it, because if it starts to slip, she will, she'll name it and then we have to kind of do a reset. But that'd be another area where I have to be very aware of it is because I tend to over function at work. I can begin to under function at home, and it's I have to give Josie a lot of permission to like name and notice that when it begins to happen so it doesn't become patterned or extend for a long period of time.

Josiah: 37:51

Does that?

Mac: 37:51

make sense.

Josiah: 37:53

Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel the, especially at if it's at work, maybe even at home too when anxiety spikes about an important decision. Sometimes the assumption is, oh, I shouldn't make this on my own. And there's probably oftentimes I'm sure there's been times when I could have made it on my own and I involved lots of other people, you know, hey, like weigh in on this issue, yeah, weigh in about this, really, when I was probably fully equipped to make the decision on my own. Yeah, yeah.

Mac: 38:32

So you know we shared. Here are some reasons why people might over function. Why might people under function?

Josiah: 38:41

Yeah, I think so, in the same categories of shame, fear and guilt, or power. I think that when I under function, it's at times in my life it's been because I assumed I have limited capacity. I assumed that my capacity is much lower than it actually is. So I have a poor view of my own autonomy, essentially that I'm really not enough and I need other people to function. Now, of course, the statement I need other people to function is true, but the capacity of which I can do things autonomously, I, most of my life, have probably assumed I can do much less than I can, and it has only been in times when I have been forced to just do something that you learn about yourself. Hey, I am capable, I am capable of doing that. It was difficult and I'm exhausted, but I did it and there's an empowerment that comes from that. But we rob ourselves of that when we have a poor view of our own capacity. We assume we can handle a lot less than we probably can.

Mac: 39:53

I almost hear you saying that both of these are identity issues, like the why's behind under functioning, over functioning. Both connect to identity. People can over function because they don't feel a sense of value, worth and significance on their own and that's a way to fill it. But people can also under function because they have a deflated sense of self. Yeah, Right, yeah, and they just sort of sit in that emptiness. That I'm not enough, mm-hmm.

Josiah: 40:21

Is that right? Yeah, that's exactly it. I will admit I'm a pretty emotionally wired person, in the sense that I feel things strongly and deeply. And as a kid and growing up, I feel like it probably took most of my life, probably until my 30s, to assume the responsibility for my emotional state. I think that I subconsciously passed that off to other people If something was wrong with me, if I felt really sad or upset about something. That was someone else's fault as to why I felt that way, and I did not assume the responsibility for what it looks like to show up in an emotionally healthy state yeah, in my home, at work, in other relationships. So this was a lesson that I think took me a long time to learn, that I think that in a lot of ways, growing up in another ways, that I yeah, I just did not, I did not assume that my emotional state was my own responsibility.

Mac: 41:20

Yeah, Bro, I'll just name that. I've seen you grow on this a ton over the last. I don't know how many years we've been working together. A lot Mm-hmm. But like a hallmark indicator of under functioning is blaming other people for your thoughts and feelings Mm-hmm, and I've just watched you increasingly be able to name what you're thinking and feeling as your own. You know, I appreciate that. It's awesome. Maybe another one kind of going back to the fear of failure when it comes to under functioning. For over functioners they can't let things fail, right? So they step in and save and rescue and do all this over functioning so that, because nothing can fail. But for under functioning, they almost assume that things will fail and so they don't even try, right, which is another form of self protection, right? So if I don't even put myself out there, if I don't try, then I can't really fail. So under functioning becomes a way of insulating oneself from the risk of failing altogether. So perhaps you know you've been in a meeting or something where there's like a really important decision that needs to be made and someone just sits back and doesn't really contribute. They don't let their opinion know, even though they have thoughts and opinions, because sharing those. If it influenced the outcome, and then the outcome doesn't go well, they would have to bear some responsibility for that. And so it's way safer to not risk, you know, having a directional role in that decision, because if it fails, that hurts right.

Katie: 42:59

You're. One thing that sticks out to me from what both of you shared is vulnerability. Like it takes vulnerability to put yourself out there, whether it be with your emotions and your feelings, your opinions, or just doing the work. You know, brittany Brown always talks about this quote from Teddy Roosevelt that says, basically, it's not the critic who counts, the credit is to the man who's actually in the arena.

Josiah: 43:21

We can change that to person, but like look the credit like to be in the arena. Good point, katie.

Katie: 43:26

Thank you. To be in the arena is tough. It takes vulnerability, because you're holding your ideas out there and your feelings and your thoughts, and they could be subject to criticism by other people.

Mac: 43:38

Might be, I would even say they will be, they will be.

Adam: 43:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, vulnerable, assume it.

Mac: 43:44

Trying is vulnerable and risky.

Katie: 43:45

Mm-hmm. Yes, so it can be under functioning can really be a way of kind of self-protection out of anxiety. A third one again, I would say could be a different form of control. I talked about how over functioning can be a form of power and control, but I also think under functioning could be that and I've seen this done If I know that something needs to get done and I really don't want it to be done or I don't wanna be a part of it, dragging my feet or refusing to engage can be a way of asserting power, even though it's more subtle.

Mac: 44:17

I'm thinking of. So our dog, beacon, hates having his nails clipped, okay, and when he knows that's time, like you get out the clippers, he'll like move and slow, you're like come here, buddy, and he'll like very slowly, like he's he's stand, like that's his, like power move, you know, to try to avoid it. It's hilarious.

Katie: 44:42

Yeah. Going back to my house cleaning example, like, let's say, alex was like, hey, you know what I would love for us to clean the house together. Like let's make a day of it, have someone take the kids Well I don't know put on podcast or jam out. And I was like, yeah, that sounds great, but I made absolutely no effort to like find a sitter or clear our calendar for a day. Like I could sort of prevent that from happening by under functioning in all sorts of ways.

Josiah: 45:09

Yeah, yeah, stubbornness can be another form of this, too Big time Like you know, dragging your feet can be like a subtle way of making it seem like you're trying, but you're not Stubbornness. I think of my daughter, my second daughter, just this morning. Mornings are not her thing, they are not her thing, and I do my best Like she's just gonna be a bear when she wakes up. Nine out of 10 mornings it's rough, and so you can tell she is grasping for power in that morning by just making you feel like you have to walk on eggshells, Like you don't want her to blow up. Yeah.

Mac: 45:49

Yeah, you'll notice this in work spaces when a decision is made and someone who maybe sits back a little bit more passively when that decision is made doesn't voice their opinion, doesn't contribute, and in the end they're not fully on board, and yet they might have some responsibility for the final outcome. They might have to. Like these steps need to be done in order to pursue this goal that we agreed upon and they just they don't meet the timeline, they start dragging their feet, et cetera. I think that's kind of what you're talking about, katie. Like, I begin under functioning and the responsibilities I have when it comes to this project as a protest because I don't really agree with it.

Josiah: 46:27

Yeah, I definitely had to learn that lesson here at crosspoint for sure. Well, I just in the past there were seasons of where the leadership, I should say the staff environment, I didn't feel like was as safe to be able to share your vulnerable thoughts and opinions. If you didn't have a real clear answer on something and so things would get decided, I wouldn't share my opinion and I would. It was very difficult to give a proper amount of effort into the project. Sure, but I have learned that even just saying something, even if I, even if the decision is different from what I wanted, just the fact that I shared something allows me to feel more ownership. Yes, yeah, maybe they didn't agree with me, maybe it was like well, I hear you, but we're still gonna do something else. The fact that I was able to share it allows me to say, hey, I did, I have some ownership of it and. But it takes work, yes, to put yourself out there when you're worried about how it's gonna be perceived.

Katie: 47:29

For sure, yeah, so all right, here's something I would name. In this conversation We've talked about overfunctioning and underfunctioning. I feel like it's fair to say that in our culture, especially overfunctioning can be perceived as responsible and reinforced. Especially in a workplace Like those are the people who tend to receive the praise and get the promotions, and maybe for some legitimate reasons. But there's just all sorts of reasons that overfunctioning is upheld and there's a common misconception that underfunctioning is the problem. But I think what we're saying here is that overfunctioning and underfunctioning are both unhealthy responses to anxiety 100%.

Mac: 48:12

There's a very common misconception that underfunctioners are the problem and overfunctioners are like the heroes and again, as I think, as you're saying, Katie, especially in workplaces they're the ones who get the praise, the accolades, maybe the job promotions, et cetera, but in fact they're both playing off each other. Their anxiety is playing off of each other in dysfunctional ways. Roberta Gilbert says overresponsibility is exactly as irresponsible as underresponsibility, so both are tied up in anxiety. Both are doing their default to lower anxiety and kind of going back to that seesaw analogy, they're playing off one another. So when one party is underfunctioning, the other party is overfunctioning and vice versa.

Josiah: 48:59

Yeah, right, yeah, if we talk about the pie analogy, if I eat six pieces of pie I just said it out loud I feel like that would be a lot of pie, but if I eat six pieces of pie, there's only two left, so the solution isn't necessarily always well, this person just needs to eat more pie because there is only so much pie to eat yeah, unless they got me. So there's responsibility on both parties to say how do we, how do both people be respected and honored? And that looks different depending on what your default is in that situation.

Mac: 49:38

Yeah, and if we go back and sort of review all the examples we've shared parenting examples, marriage examples, workplace examples you'll see that pattern at play, that reciprocal underfunctioning, overfunctioning dynamic that seesaw is in motion. Okay, so let's talk about marriage for a moment. I confess that when things get really busy in the workplace, I can be into underfunction at home, and I give Josie permission to name that when she's feeling it. There have been other seasons, though, where I know it's gonna be busy and we get ahead of it and I go look, this is gonna be a demanding season, are you okay? Are you okay with me giving more to work and this, not me not contributing these spots? That, to me, is not what we're talking about. That's like teamwork conversations not driven by anxiety, but like kind of mature dialogue around how are we working as a team in this season? I'm in one of those seasons right now. Josie's orienting full time, which means some of the responsibilities she'd normally do at home she isn't doing, which is requiring me to step up. I don't see either one of us kind of being anxious. We're just going in light of all of our responsibilities. What is reciprocity and teamwork look like now? But I do think that there are a lot of marriages where, unfortunately, the default is over and under functioning as the norm and it's really not healthy and it hasn't been talked about and it isn't collaborative at all.

Katie: 51:13

You know what I'm saying. And marriage is such a good relationship to zoom in on because, look, this is like two people who are in really close relationship and there are often a lot of responsibility that resides on the marriage, like, especially where you've got two spouses and jobs and kids and activities and a house and bills and there's just a lot of responsibility and it becomes like this pressure cooker, and so I think you are going to fall into natural patterns where one person has more strengths in one area and the other person is kind of complimenting those strengths in another area. And so I think, just to emphasize what you're saying, mac, we're not saying everything needs to be perfectly equal, absolutely not. There are different seasons where one person might do more. There are different strengths. We have to be adaptable. Yes, yes, yes, but what we're talking about is over under functioning as a way of relieving anxiety.

Mac: 52:05

Yes and go ahead. Yeah well, and my fear is we've got like this 1950s view of what a marriage should look like. That's very much culturally accommodated. Somehow it got fused with like this is what the Bible says, but it basically is hey, the man goes to work and provides for the family, that's the man's role, and then the woman does everything at home. And when the man gets home there's really no teamwork. He sort of kicks off his shoes, make me a sandwich, give me a beer, and I'm gonna sit in front of the TV, right, and that I think that I mean, I'll just name for me. Generationally there's still remnants of that sort of like way of operating in a family, and I would say that that is not what we're talking about here. That's actually in many signs dysfunctional.

Josiah: 52:53

Yeah Right, yeah, some of those you know, I will say societally reinforced gender roles, might be worth looking out for those because you may be operating out of this over and under functioning, especially at home, out of assumptions that this is what I'm supposed to do because I'm a guy or a, you know, like a man or a woman, and I think it's worth examining those, like, if you and your partner are cool with it all, it can be a beautiful, functioning right. If, like, someone feels like really called to be a stay at home mom and like a homemaker, they can be a wonderful thing. This is not at all, bashing that at all. It could be wonderful, but there could be assumptions being made as to who does what that are causing an over and under functioning dynamic, and it's worth examining those to make sure that you're being intentional. Yeah, because both people should be feeling honored and respected and loved in the relationship.

Mac: 53:58

And if one person.

Josiah: 53:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie: 54:02

And when we have this unhealthy over functioning, under functioning dynamic, I think it can lead to all sorts of things. For one, it can result in a power imbalance. Right, we've talked about power. If I'm, for example, the one like single-handedly managing our family calendar, with no input from my spouse, and I decide what we do and how we spend our time, like, well, I have a lot more power. It can lead to resentment. If one partner consistently over functions, they are going to feel burdened and probably underappreciated, and the underfunctioner is probably going to feel inadequate, maybe controlled, and this can relate to resentment and relational distance, et cetera, et cetera, enabling we touched on enabling Sometimes one partner can take on an unfair portion of responsibility in a way that enables the underfunctioner, and this can become problematic when the underfunctioner then becomes over dependent on the overfunctioner. Right, if my husband is like, let's say, putting the kids to bed every night because I wanna watch my Netflix show, that's not healthy. And if he never says, hey, I wish you would help me put the kids to bed, well, then he's enabling and he's likely to grow resentful. Another thing is, I think it can hinder personal growth for both partners If I'm doing things that my spouse or partner or colleague can and should do for themselves. I'm actually hindering their growth and I'm making it harder for them to develop the skills necessary to contribute in a meaningful way. And then, lastly, I think it can really hurt communication If we say, hey, we're talking about these as responses to anxiety. I feel like, more often than not, when I go to an over functioning or an under functioning response, it's because I am uncomfortable with the idea of having a conversation, of saying hey, this isn't working for me. I feel like I'm taking on an unfair share of the burden here and I wanna have a conversation about it. We don't like having those conversations. They can be really difficult and, if we're being honest, I think more often than not it's easier to do the thing or to go to the default that we're used to doing doing the thing or not doing the thing than it is to have a difficult conversation.

Josiah: 56:05

Yeah, yes, yeah, mac, how long did it take for you and Josie to grow comfortable and just being able to name when you sense some anxiety around over and under functioning in the home?

Mac: 56:16

Well, I think, just learning these categories, josie and I have always been kind of like there's not a whole lot of filtering between the two of us, and so the communication has always been one of our strong suits. That, honestly, goes back to when we first met and started dating, so if something's bothering Josie, she's usually not gonna sit on it for more than 10 minutes, yeah Right, so she's more on the quick side to name if something's bothersome or you know, which I appreciate cause then we would hash it out. I think the default, though, if I'm honest, is that sometimes, because we're willing to talk about things when we notice them right away, there can be sometimes like I just need to extend more grace, like we don't really need to talk about this, you're just having an off day, and vice versa.

Josiah: 57:02

Right.

Mac: 57:04

But it has taken us a while to figure out how to distinguish between over and under functioning that's driven by anxiety, because one of us is getting sucked into anxiety, and over functioning in other areas of life Usually that's part of it Versus nobody's over functioning here we're just dealing with a shifting shifting responsibilities in other spheres of life and we need to. That's gonna impact how we do things at home and we wanna operate with maturity and have check-ins around that. That has taken time to figure out and is an ongoing tension that needs to be managed.

Josiah: 57:36

Yeah, so such a clear, healthy response when you sense the anxiety Cause. That's what's essentially happening, like either of you is sensing anxiety, maybe around your work, or she's talking about home responsibilities. If you experience that anxiety, the response the unhealthy response is to what Either over and under function and we're naming this as like a clear example that if you get into the pattern of checking in about it, you can have a healthy response. Now, instead of just running and doing everything and assuming he's gonna be mad if I don't have it all done, I can go to him and say, hey, it seems like you're under functioning here in the home and I'm feeling it.

Katie: 58:20

I wanna be able to have a conversation about it.

Josiah: 58:21

I was like going directly to the person rather than offloading it in all these unhealthy ways.

Mac: 58:25

Yeah, and of course, this is where all the skills we've talked about with, like self-awareness, self-regulation, all that comes into play here, because this isn't gonna go well if two people are kind of like coming in defensively and like territorial and with accusations. This goes best when both people we want the same thing, we want like to team up here, and so how do we do that? And I'll say, there's also times when, like, the responsibilities and pressing in on both of us are so high that we can't maintain what we were doing before, and so then it becomes a conversation of like, what are we willing to let slide, and can we agree about what those things are for a season so that we can, like you know, get?

Katie: 59:09

there. Yeah, we've certainly had serious seasons like that in our marriage too, where we sort of end up developing this practice of having a checkpoint, typically around dinner, if we both come home, if we both had a stressful day at work. Sometimes we've given each other permission to say I'm feeling really tapped out tonight and I would love to just not have to do cleanup or bedtime or whatever. And then the other person can say that's fine, I'm feeling pretty good, like I got it. Or the other person can say I'm feeling tapped out too, and then it's like all right, well, we both just got to kind of, like you know, pull together and get through it.

Mac: 59:41

Yeah, or Domino's on speed dial, you know.

Katie: 59:45

Yeah, Domino's on speed dial I just think it's so helpful to name that. And then you know, exactly where each other's coming from.

Josiah: 59:51

Yes, because you can. You just start assuming the other person is going to cover your slack, and I think it's worth naming in any relationship when you just have to be honest about where you're at and allow the other person to do that. That too I heard Brene Brown actually on a podcast recently talked about her and her husband do a very similar check-in when they get home from work.

Katie: 1:00:12

They're both.

Josiah: 1:00:13

they both work, they have a similar check-in and they have a number scale and I think it's out of a hundred. They'll say like yeah yeah, it's basically like I'm at 30% capacity right now and both people have a chance to name, and the other one might say I'm at maybe 40. It's like, okay, well, that means we have 30% to cover Interesting, or 30% isn't gonna get done. How do we navigate?

Mac: 1:00:36

that yeah. How do we lower expectations?

Josiah: 1:00:38

Yeah, you stop resenting the other person. Realize we're both struggling and it may be. Hey, you know what? It's pizza night. I'm not making dinner, or it's? We're gonna leave the dishes and we'll handle them tomorrow.

Katie: 1:00:48

It's okay to leave them for a day. Yeah, and underneath that has to be a commitment that we'll both give whatever we can. Right, we know not one person is just going to under function to be lazy. It's not a cop out.

Josiah: 1:00:57

It's not a cop out right, yeah there's a lot of trust, you both develop the respect over time to go.

Katie: 1:01:02

You have my word. I will give you whatever I can.

Mac: 1:01:05

I'm not sitting on the couch at 100% saying I'm at 30%, right, right.

Josiah: 1:01:11

There is trust, right, because for some it may be under functioning.

Katie: 1:01:15

I did not know Renee Brown did that, but I there you go, do you feel? Good. I feel a lot better about myself. Do you feel good that you?

Josiah: 1:01:19

guys do that all the time.

Adam: 1:01:22

She also says in there and I feel like it's kind of what you guys are saying without directly saying it she also says that nobody's ever at 100% and you're lying to yourself if you say that, and I feel like a lot of what you guys are talking about here is almost like over and under functioning just is, like there's no escaping it. It might be little moment to moment things where maybe a kid blows up at you and one person overreacts and the other person backs away from it, or so little moment to moment things like that, but also larger scale, yes, and there's no stress at work and stuff like that. So over and under functioning just is. It only becomes unhealthy though if it's assumed or not communicated.

Josiah: 1:02:05

Sure yeah, or if it's spawned out of anxiety. You think about the seesaw analogy. Anytime you're on a seesaw, it's almost never completely even unless so people are both the exact same weight and they're not moving right. The seesaw implies that there will be give and take, as long as there's communication and honor and respect done to both people. Yep, so if let's move on to the next segment that we've been doing in this entire series right, we've talked about all this stuff, talked about over and under functioning. Where do we see this show up in the life of Jesus and connecting it to our own discipleship?

Mac: 1:02:40

Yeah, one of the ways, one of the things I've learned and trying to continue to go back to Jesus in the series is just that you notice how emotionally mature and healthy Jesus was by putting yourself in Jesus's shoes and then realizing what you would have done.

Josiah: 1:02:55

I don't think I want to handle it that bad yes.

Mac: 1:02:58

So some of the ways that he embodies emotional maturity you can just kind of breeze past because you don't realize how high functioning is and how high functioning he is, until you realize how you would have handled that in a less mature way. But of course, these dynamics of over and under functioning we're pressing upon Jesus all the time and I can think of a few examples where Jesus sort of refused to over function for other people. Cameron shared, I think, this past weekend around the rich young ruler who honestly, with all sincerity, comes to Jesus and says I've been trying to be a faithful follower of my entire life. I've done all these things. Is there anything I'm lacking? And Jesus says, yeah, go sell everything you have, give it to the poor and then come follow me. And we're told that he walks away sad and Jesus doesn't take responsibility for his decision or his feeling. As we've named before, he doesn't chase after the rich young ruler and try to renegotiate Well, maybe 80%, if you give away 80% or 40% or 30%, then come follow me. He just lets him make his decision and he doesn't seem anxious about it. That would be an example I think of. Like John Six, where he feeds. He feeds an entire crowd of people by multiplying bread, and then they start following him wanting more bread. You know like hey, continue to do that for us, right? So Jesus resisted. If you just read through the gospels, you'll notice tons of examples where Jesus refused to take responsibility for other people's thinking or feeling, or do things for other people that they can and should be doing for themselves. In the same way, you'll also notice, I think, jesus refusing to under function and do things that he was responsible for doing. So, for instance, the penultimate example of this is Jesus going to the cross, right, because he didn't want to do that. You see this wrestling match in the garden the night. He's betrayed where he's going, man, if there's any other way, take this away from me. And yet he reaches this point of resolution. Yes, I know that this is what I need to do and I'm not gonna pass it off to someone else. I'm not gonna under function or not do it or avoid it. I'm going to step into it knowing it's the next faithful step. This is why I'm here, right, yeah?

Katie: 1:05:20

This is my journey. It's my journey and I know who has to do it.

Mac: 1:05:23

This is what.

Katie: 1:05:23

I'm here to do.

Mac: 1:05:24

It's gonna be hard, it's gonna be painful, but I'm committed to doing the next right thing, and that's a sign of healthy faithfulness and functioning.

Josiah: 1:05:34

Yeah, I think about that story. So the night when he goes to the garden to pray, he invites his disciples to go with him, and so he wanted their help. Right, he wanted their help and their support. And what happens? They all fall asleep. Totally. None of them can stay awake long enough to actually be there for Jesus in the hour of his greatest need. But Jesus did not use that as an excuse to say I'm not doing it. So he was able, in the face of someone else, like he had to take responsibility for what he was gonna do, and I think it would have been easy for him to. It would have been tempting for him to under function and what he was designed to do by blaming the fact that, well, nobody's with me anyway Invited all these disciples. I poured my life into them. These supposed to carry on the build the kingdom on these. 12 and they're laying there asleep, but I can blame them for how I'm feeling and start making excuses for what I'm supposed to do.

Mac: 1:06:37

They're puffed up on Passover lamb all and a food coma and I'm sitting here about to be betrayed. Yeah, so how? Let's practice. Let's talk about practice. How do you, how do we begin practicing this? What would you say to our listeners if, having ease dropped in on this conversation, what do I do to begin growing in this?

Katie: 1:07:03

Is it technically eavesdropping if we're creating a podcast and they're listening?

Josiah: 1:07:09

Well, they could be eavesdropping on someone else's listening of the podcast.

Katie: 1:07:12

Yeah, I suppose.

Mac: 1:07:14

I'm hearing it through their headphones at a coffee shop, yeah, or maybe they're listening to in the living room and they're not the one who pushed play in all of this in there.

Josiah: 1:07:22

So this is for you if you're eavesdropping.

Mac: 1:07:24

This is for you.

Katie: 1:07:25

All the eavesdroppers.

Josiah: 1:07:26

We see you Now. I would say the first practice would just be to notice your default. We talked to, we said that we're default a lot in this conversation. We're assuming that, based upon personality and life experience and personal growth, that there are gonna be areas in which you default one or the other. And this may be different in each relationship, it may be different in each environment. But take a second and reflect and notice what is my default. Let's just pick at the workplace. What is my default? Do I over function or do I under function?

Mac: 1:08:05

Yeah, one question to ask yourself to figure out what your default might be, especially in different relationships, as you consider those different environments, is who are you equal with? Kind of going back to that seesaw, if there's a sense of equality, you're gonna feel like you're eye to eye with that person. Who do you feel like you're above? That's often a sign of over functioning, and who do you feel beneath? That might be a sign of under functioning.

Josiah: 1:08:35

Hmm, yeah, that's good.

Katie: 1:08:37

Yeah, that's a good question and maybe, if you're listening to this, wondering if you have a default. You do.

Josiah: 1:08:43

Yeah, you do.

Katie: 1:08:44

So maybe the step one A before noticing, if notice your default is Admit, you have a problem. The step one A is admit you have a default. Your way of doing things feels normal to you, but-.

Josiah: 1:08:55

Yeah, I would even take it a step further and say that that's aggressive.

Katie: 1:09:00

Step one A A.

Josiah: 1:09:01

No, I would say that if you don't notice this dynamic in your life, you're probably an underfunctioner. I'll bet if you're listening to this this is just my inkling, but if you're listening to this and all these light bulbs are going off in your head, you're probably an overfunctioner, because my guess is that anxiety has been passed to you and you're noticing all these tensions and you're hearing things to be like see, I knew they weren't doing this and you're probably thinking about lots of things. My assumption is that if you don't notice any of your defaults, you may be underfunctioning, Sure.

Katie: 1:09:37

It's probably a fair assumption. Yeah, I would say. Maybe a second practice would be to clarify responsibility and clarify what your contribution is going to be. So, going back to my initial example, where I overfunctioned and wrote these policies that another person was supposed to write, this is exactly what I should have done. I should have been explicitly clear about. This is going to be my responsibility and my role. This is going to be your responsibility, and certainly that doesn't need to be like the final word. If you have questions or think that that's not a fair allocation of responsibility, like, let's talk about that, but let's get everything on the table so that it's very clear and then let's check in along the way so that if one of us feels like we're not sticking to the expectations that we put out there or not curing a fair load of the responsibility, then we can have a conversation about it.

Mac: 1:10:28

Yeah, and I like what you said about clarifying your responsibility, because I think under stress and anxiety oftentimes we can focus and put energy towards changing the other person, which we've already talked about. That's just an anxious response. So this step two, or practice two, is about you doing some reflective work to grapple with. What am I responsible for here and how does that show up in the way I'm interacting? I'm taking responsibility for myself rather than trying to control someone else. A third practice in light of that, then, is just to balance the seesaw. So you change the over functioning, under functioning seesaw by focusing on your own functioning. If you're over functioning, you need to stop over functioning. If you're under functioning, you need to stop under functioning. And what will happen when you do that in a relational if there's a relational dynamic at play where you're over functioning, another person's under functioning or vice versa, is when you start to balance out your functioning over time. It's a keyword over time, that seesaw will begin to even out Not immediately, it's worth noting. Especially if you've been over functioning for someone and then you start to function the way like an appropriate amount, they will often start under functioning even more, and then sometimes what happens is oh, that didn't work, so we go back to over functioning. No, no, no. If you stick with it, though the long run is, it will eventually come to a more balanced place.

Josiah: 1:12:05

Yeah, because you've essentially said I'm unwilling to take all of this anxiety. It's going to inherently pass some of that to someone else. Be like, I'm not bearing this by myself, this is what I'm willing to do and you stop. And then this person has been under functioning and been cruising along with a life of ease, is now like all right. Now they're met with all this that the other person has been bearing first along.

Mac: 1:12:32

Imagine a parent who's really concerned about their kid's nutrition. Maybe their child is too skinny or whatever, and so they've been packing their kid's lunch every day. And now they realize, oh my goodness, like my child needs to take responsibility for their own nutrition and begin packing their own lunch. And so they name this okay, I'm going to stop making your lunch, and it's your job to do that. This is something you can and should be doing on your own. And then, all of a sudden, the child responds by not packing a lunch and going to school. And well, that's going to spike anxiety, because it's like the very thing I care about most, which is their nutrition. And are they getting what they're need? And then, right, it's going to be so tempting to go back and begin making that lunch again, but in time, if the child is going to school every day without a lunch, they're going to eventually start making their lunch, right?

Josiah: 1:13:22

Yeah, I think, along with the balance, the seesaw from someone whose default is under functioning not in everything, but I know myself enough to say that. I think that one of the problems you can have is, like you may notice the dynamic of like, oh, I'm doing less, someone's doing more. You may lack the imagination of what to do to try to correct it, Say, I want to correct it, but I don't necessarily know what to take off your plate, what would actually be meaningful? So, just maybe a really simple way would just be to go to the person in which you notice this dynamic and say give them permission to say I can handle more. You got to. If you name for me something that I can take off your plate, I'll do it. Or giving you permission to say like, hey, you like functioning this way, but there is permission for you to say I can't handle it all.

Katie: 1:14:15

And.

Josiah: 1:14:16

I want to make sure that that's made known. My guess is that conversation in itself would be a very loving conversation. It would make the other person feel seen and more appreciated and it may not be as much balancing as you think. It may just be one thing on their plate that has been very overwhelming and if you're willing to do that for them, they feel loved and cared for. It just starts to balance the seesaw.

Katie: 1:14:42

And that's maybe a good threshold question. If you're wondering whether or not you are doing this, maybe in a marriage or whatever, I would ask do both partners feel honored and appreciated?

Josiah: 1:14:53

Yeah, if one person is feeling overwhelmed and the other person is like everything's awesome, I want to talk about that. Yes, yes, all right. So we talked about over and under functioning today quite a bit. Just to recap quick over functioning is what I do for someone else, what they can and should be doing for themselves. Under functioning is when I don't do something that I can and should be doing for myself. And we talked about three practices in which we can do to try to write the ship in this way. One is just noticing my own default. Two is clarifying my responsibility and my contribution within a relationship or in a dynamic or in an environment. And the third way is working to balance the seesaw. So if I'm an overfunctioner, I need to be willing to do less in order to empower someone else. If I'm an underfunctioner, I need to be willing to do more in order to write the ship.

Katie: 1:15:53

Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Next time, we're gonna start trying to bring together everything we've been talking about over the last several months by discussing boundaries, what they are, how to implement them and keep them in place. So we hope you'll continue to tune in and we'll see you next time.

Mac: 1:16:11

Practice is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.