Navigating Relational Triangles

Katie: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We're in a series right now on emotional maturity and how it is essential to discipleship. We believe that Jesus had more EQ than any other person that has ever walked to the planet and consistently embodied emotional maturity. So if we are going to grow as disciples of Jesus, we must grow our emotional maturity. So to get at this, we've been talking about anxiety. Anxiety often causes us to be emotionally reactive and it impedes our ability to embody emotional maturity. Today, we continue our conversation about how anxiety shows up by discussing the importance of noticing and navigating triangles. So we just finished recording. I think we had a great conversation and we're excited to share with you, so let's get into it.

‍Mac: 1:01

Welcome everyone. My name is Mack.

Katie: 1:03

I'm Katie.

Josiah: 1:04

And I'm Josiah.

Mac: 1:05

So I had an experience last week that has made me curious about something that pertains to you two. Josie and I went on a belated anniversary trip to Isle Royal, which is technically part of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, the UP. It actually got delayed today because the water of Lake Superior was so rocky and windy and the waves were so high we couldn't do the boat ride. But we ended up going the second day and the conditions were even worse. I mean, we're talking like eight, nine foot waves for the first hour and a half. It felt like a roller coaster ride where you're up and then down and then we had to switch directions so it was more side to side. The entire boat got motion sickness. So it just made me curious Do you guys get motion sickness, like when you're in the back of a car or you know what I mean? Like I have my guests with both of you just knowing you.

Katie: 2:02

But yeah, yeah, I get lightheaded and nauseous really easily by a lot of things, so yeah, I've been there.

Josiah: 2:09

I assume that too yeah.

Katie: 2:11

I pass out. I pass out somewhat more frequently than the average person.

Josiah: 2:16

At one point during you pass out, when you're nauseous.

Katie: 2:19

I pass out if I'm throwing up often Really Not every time, but Alex has found me more than once mid puke unconscious. Oh gosh.

Mac: 2:30

On more than one occasion on this boat ride Josie and I were talking about. Like the people that were so grateful aren't here.

Katie: 2:37

Yeah, and we in your name came up. I'll take that. I'll take that. I'm also glad I wasn't there.

Josiah: 2:43

Yeah, I don't deal with that very much. I have a pretty strong stomach. I don't deal with nausea or even when if my house is sick with stomach stuff, I just I never get it. Yeah, so I don't know, I don't deal with that much.

Katie: 2:57

You're a lucky, lucky human.

Mac: 2:59

I happen to be one of the few people that made it the entire boat ride without having an issue, but man, it was pretty, you're just looking around and everyone's puking. People were like laying on the floor with their barf bags and like it was insane. It smelled awesome. Oh well, they had the door open and I mean it was like, but it was an insane. This is a great way to start.

Katie: 3:20

I'm glad you survived. I'm glad you survived and I'm glad I wasn't there.

Josiah: 3:25

That is so funny. So let's jump into this. We are in a series on emotional maturity and how it's essential to discipleship, and within this EQ or emotional intelligence conversation, we're taking some time to take a deep dive into anxiety. Anxiety often causes us to become emotionally reactive, so we can also call anxiety emotional reactivity. We've named it as, and this emotional reactivity impedes our best attempts to embody this maturity and love people the way Jesus does. So in previous episodes we named where anxiety shows up and we've taken these four spaces from a resource called Managing Leadership Anxiety by Steve Cuss, great book.

Mac: 4:12

cusswords.com, I believe, is his website.

Josiah: 4:16

He's cool. So the first place where this shows up was the space within me. So this is my own internal anxiety. And then anxiety also shows up in the space between me and another person, which we would consider relational anxiety. This is the anxiety that exists between me and another person. It also shows up in the space in other people, so other people. Just the same way I deal with my internal anxiety, other people are also experiencing theirs. And then, fourthly, there's the space between others, so the space between other people and within me, or within a group of people. So the next week we talked. We then began to dive into how it shows up. So we talked about where, and then we started talking about how, and we talked about the three ways this shows up in fight, flight and fake. So fight is our attempt to lower my anxiety by changing someone or something else outside of me in order to manage my own. Flight is our attempt to lower anxiety by simply running away or avoiding, or like running away from the problem or the person who's causing the anxiety. And then fake is our attempt to essentially just to pretend and to put on a mask, to pretend like everything's fine, like I don't have anxiety or to simply mask how I actually feel about someone else in a way of avoidance. We also looked at how Jesus did a lot of these things. He didn't go into fight, flight or fake to fix his own anxiety. Rather, he faced his anxiety and because of this he was able to manage himself and stay present to others in love, which is what those of us who follow Jesus are invited into as well. So we want to do another discussion today about how anxiety shows up and so we can think of this as part two and how this shows up, and we want to talk about how to notice and navigate something called triangles. So what is a triangle? Mac set us up for that.

Mac: 6:26

Can I?

Katie: 6:27

just say this. It kind of feels like the opening of a Sesame Street episode. Today we're going to talk about triangle. What is a triangle? My kids watch Sesame Street I just remember Cookie Monster.

Mac: 6:38

He is my favorite one.

Katie: 6:39

Yeah, he is pretty good.

Mac: 6:41

Yeah, go ahead, mac. Okay, a triangle is a relational triad between three people. So I think the first thing I would just say is triangles are universal. They're everywhere. We all experience them on a daily basis and there's literally no way to escape them. We're surrounded by, and always involved in, ongoing triangles. So the three of us are a triangle. I have a relationship with you, josiah. I also have a relationship with you, katie, and the two of you have a relationship also with one another. So the three of us form a triangle. If we zoom out, our entire church staff is a web of interlocking triangles. In fact, if we zoom out from there, our entire church is a web of interlocking triangles. Additionally, whenever two people communicate about a third person who is absent at that moment, that's a triangle. So a friend tells you something about another friend and they're not there, that's a triangle. A coworker complains to you about another person on staff Well, that's a triangle. Two parents discussing how to parent one of their children that's a triangle. Two siblings discussing how to handle the upcoming holidays that's a triangle. So triangles are universal. There's no escaping them. We exist in a web of triangles and once you know what they are, you'll be able to literally see them everywhere. Now, this is really important, so I just encourage our listeners. This is important, so listen up. A triangle by itself is neither positive or negative. They're neutral, but they can become either positive or negative depending on how people function within them. I'm going to say that again they're neither positive nor negative by themselves. They're neutral, but they become positively charged or negatively charged depending on how people function within them. So it's so important just to recognize that a triangle isn't intrinsically bad. It's how we are operating within them that determine whether they're healthy or unhealthy, toxic or positive. So maybe let's just break down those two as a way forward. Let's talk about negative triangles for a moment. A negative triangle is formed when one person becomes uncomfortable in a relationship with another person and then pulls in a third person to manage their anxiety in that original relationship. And just remember I've said this before anxious people do what anxious people do. This is what anxious people do. When they're anxious about a relationship they're in many times they'll pull a third person in to lower their anxiety. They're just doing what anxious people do. So, for instance, let's say, some relational anxiety bubbles up between me and Josiah. If I'm not aware of it. I could try to pull Katie into our dynamic in order to validate me and my perspective or take my side in whatever the argument is about, and that would do the work of lowering my anxiety, because now I know that Katie sees it the way I see it, that's a negative example of a triangle. It's actually went from a triangle which is neutral to triangulation at that moment. And, josiah, I have a little bit of a triangle going on with you, katie, because both of us love coffee, can drink coffee and you're on the outside of that truck.

Josiah: 10:16

The fact that you don't drink coffee makes us anxious. We talk about it with each other.

Mac: 10:22

When you're present and when you're not there especially. We talk about it all the time.

Katie: 10:26

Sit at the carafe of coffee inside my office and talk about how out of it I am.

Mac: 10:32

So I don't know if that did that orientation kind of help. And so what are some examples of how you've participated in, experienced negative triangles at work in your life? Not necessarily in our work environment, but just like in life.

Katie: 10:48

I was about to dish. Well, you got me Well. Given that I'm the only person around this table that experienced being a girl in middle school, I'll share that. That experience was like one big negative triangle, or maybe many, many little triangles, but seriously, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me, I mean this Call to mind the movie Mean Girls. Yeah, right, yeah, maybe not that extreme. And I suddenly Great movie. Yeah, it is a great movie and somewhat accurate. So, yeah, I mean, there's the constant, just what you would think. A conflict happens between two people. One girl goes to someone else and says did you see what she did? Did you hear what she said to me? I can't believe that. And this is the stereotypical. There's the grunt. Yep, this is the stereotypical idea of a negative triangle. Right, you're only going to the other person to justify how right you are and how that person wronged you based on your very one-sided perspective. And I know I did this at this age. I remember doing it and I certainly wasn't going to a third party to try to challenge my perspective or better manage my emotions. I was doing it to form an alliance. Especially at that age, you want to know who's with you and who's on your side. It feels good in the moment to have someone aligned with you and agreeing with how terrible everyone else is.

Mac: 12:13

If you've never thought about the concept of triangles, think about the TV show Survivor, because the entire thing is people trying to build alliances so they can outlast everyone, and it's all about forming positive and engaging in these types of conversations. Yeah, and there's betrayal and backbiting and surprises.

Katie: 12:35

Well, and that's just the thing. It feels better in the moment, but I think in the long run it ends up producing more anxiety.

Mac: 12:40

For sure it does.

Katie: 12:42

Because I remember having the thought well, can I really trust what you're saying, because today you're on my side and you're telling me what I want to hear, but tomorrow are you going to go agree with that person and say be talking about me negatively. It's not until you develop relationships with people who do shoot you straight that you can actually trust their words. So I think in the end negative triangles produce more anxiety.

Mac: 13:03

When triangulation becomes normative, it breeds a culture of paranoia where I can never trust that whatever is happening between us isn't also happening about me with other people. Right, yeah, yeah.

Josiah: 13:18

I think that one-to-one relationships are sort of they're inherently unstable and you can feel that. So just think about that picture of a relationship that's really close to you. It can feel good, but what is the first thing that happens? As soon as you sense tension with this other person, the first thing you do? It might even just someone else might come to mind, even in a conversation. It may not even be I'm going to call this person. Your brain may even be looking for a different subject, someone else to bring into this conversation to relieve the anxiety I'm sensing between this other person. So I just think it's so interesting that the healthy response is usually if you have tension with someone, will you go to them? Yeah, and you go directly to them. But why, for some reason, our instinct? Because of that instability? When it's just two people, the instinct is just as quickly as possible includes someone else. And although that isn't always bad to include someone, when you don't do it intentionally, it just becomes compulsive and I think can erode healthy relationships.

Mac: 14:31

Yeah, for sure. Let's continue to fill out some examples of how this can show up. If you're a parent, this is going to show up. I've already said that just talking about a child as parents is forming a triangle, but your kids will also triangle you. So just a few weeks ago, one of our kids asked for a sleepover with a friend. We had way too much going on so it wasn't possible. And I think Josie said no, that's not going to work. And what did our son do? I wasn't aware of that conversation, so comes and asked me the same thing because he didn't get the answer he wanted. Right, hoping that if he gets a different answer now it's like open to, you know, new discussion. That would be an example of sort of a triangulation. Didn't get the answer from that person I wanted, so I'll go to this other person Now. Thank goodness, I also knew what our schedule was and you know there's no way that that would have been possible. But that's an example. Your kids will triangulate you and then you also are operating in a triangle possible or negative when it comes to your kid.

Katie: 15:38

And they figured that out young. Like my two year old is doing that already. Daddy said no. Like if you were smart you wouldn't tell me that he said no, because then you actually might get a different answer.

Josiah: 15:47

Yeah, he'll learn.

Katie: 15:48

Yeah, he'll learn.

Mac: 15:50

It happens with in your broader family. So I alluded to this in a previous episode that my dad had some. I had open heart surgery this past spring and there was some sort of expectation that my parents had that all of us siblings would be present for the entire duration of the surgery and come into town for that week, which was easy for Josie and I because we were in town. But all of my sisters live somewhere else and they weren't all planning to come for various reasons, which created some anxiety. And at different points over that month I literally ended up on the phone with each one of my sisters and my parents because there was anxiety in the family system. Now the good news is that everybody was able to regain their footing and then work that out on a one to one basis. But had I not been aware of how anxiety shows up I think at least my participation that could have looked very different.

Josiah: 16:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. An example for my own life, and I don't mind sharing this because I've definitely pointed it out to my family. But my family lives about an hour and a half away. My sister lives in town with me and for some reason the feedback loop about what's going on in my life goes through my sister instead of directly to me. And I don't even understand it. Like just call me and ask, but this seems to be the first. The first reaction is to ask my sister what's going on in my life rather than just calling me. Oh gosh, it's not even bad. I don't think they talk bad about me, it's just like it's just the reaction, like my sister becomes the hub of information for what's going on in my life?

Mac: 17:26

Yeah, it happens in so. It happens in parenting, it happens in larger family dynamics, it happens in friendships this is a podcast for our church community. It also happens in churches, oh yeah, okay. So like I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone in our community disagree with a decision or not, like how something was said or done, and rather than coming and talking about that one to one, like kind of with relational maturity and humility et cetera, they'll sort of take that to their group of friends that are also part of our church and sort of build a case against the decision. The first like build a case, and then that anxiety and that perspective sort of ripples out through all of those triangles and before you know it it's like a much bigger problem than it would have been had. We just had a conversation one to one. Can't even tell you how many times I've seen that, both in our church community, but also heard other pastoral leaders talk about how that same dynamic happens in their community.

Josiah: 18:32

Yeah, yeah, I think, for sure, I think. I think there probably exists in every church. I think that there's probably not a church on the planet that couldn't address a gossip problem in their community. I just think there's so many outlets for people to spiritualize gossiping about someone else.

Mac: 18:56

Oh yeah, man, I've got a prayer request about Katie right now. Yeah, Can you pray for?

Josiah: 19:01

hey you should really pray for Katie.

Katie: 19:02

She's dealing with X, Y and Z.

Mac: 19:05

Yeah, it's so funny because it's kind of true. Well, we've been praying and fasting for you for weeks. No thanks, Thanks guys.

Katie: 19:13

Yeah, I think this is a church problem because it's a human problem. Right, it happens in every organization, every workplace, every family. I know I've worked in workplaces that maybe weren't the healthiest and you saw triangles form everywhere because people wanted to know that other people kind of have their back and saw things the way they did, and I think it's easier as people to do that than to go to the source of the problem.

Mac: 19:37

Well, another way I've seen this in the church show up, especially coming out of the pandemic I mean church trends coming out of the pandemic is that there's been sort of a mass exodus from church for a whole variety of reasons Many, the majority of churches their attendance has declined. One of the things I've noticed is that people come up to me and there was someone who was attending our church and now they've kind of like faded away and it's impossible for us to keep track of all of that. It just is, and they'll say yeah, so, and so it was just kind of like I haven't seen them around and they're friends with that person, maybe you should give them a call. And it's like, ah, like without an awareness of triangles and what's happening in that moment, I may operate out of a totally different sense of responsibility or have an entirely different reaction and how I orient to that moment.

Josiah: 20:32

Right, yeah, yeah, that's funny. It reminds me of a story. My dad is a pastor and he was when we were kids too, and I remember he told us the story years later after it happened, but when he was younger he had a woman come up to him in church whose husband was not a believer and he loved golfing and he would never go to church on Sunday. So she went to my dad and said, hey, if you were like there pretending to golf and you were there in between whole such and such. oh my goodness, I know he'll be there at this time cause I know his tea time and then you guys could maybe have strike up like an impromptu conversation about church.

Katie: 21:20

And she was trying to orchestrate this thing for her husband to have this sort of like Did she give him a script of what to say she would have? Gee.

Josiah: 21:28

Except he's like, yeah, I'm not doing that. That's terribly awkward.

Mac: 21:33

Yeah, this happens quite a bit. I mean, even in the last six months, I can think of several examples where someone's having relational tension, for instance in their marriage, and they'll come to you for advice or to share, to talk, and in that moment, as a pastor and as a leader, you're being invited into a triangle. You just need to know that, and oftentimes with it comes an expectation that you'll do something on their behalf to convince the other person to do something. And that's an example of like. If you don't aren't aware that you're being triangleed, that they're trying to leverage your weight or trying to get you to act on their behalf, man, you're gonna be swept into the anxiety of that relational system very quickly. So you gotta have your eyes open to this stuff, all right. So okay, negative triangles. I imagine, if you're listening in, you can think of all sorts of examples of how a triangle is turned toxic or negative in your family and your parenting and your friendships and your church, whatever. Let's switch gears and talk about how triangles can actually be positive, though. So it's not just that they're unhealthy or they're negative and to be avoided. Again, it all depends on how people function within them. Triangles can be neutral and then you can create or lean into them in a way that increases your functioning in a healthy way. So Jim and Trisha have been really helpful to me from the leader's journey on this. They name two characteristics that create a positive triangle. So two things that kind of ensure we're pivoting out of a positive charge rather than a negative charge. The first one is that the person venting or, you know, offing some of their anxiety, offloading some of their anxiety, is doing so to actually calm down with the goal of better managing themselves. So, in other words, if you're the person who's anxious or that's the other person who's anxious, the context is they're actually offloading their anxiety with the goal of taking responsibility for him or herself. It's not just about the other person, it's about them ultimately showing up as their best selves. The second thing is that the person listening the person listening is mature enough to be present without taking on responsibility for the relational dynamic they're now listening in on. So they don't move into, fix the problem. They don't jump into the relationship and think they need to like mediate this conflict. They don't let the anxiety of the other person's conflict spread to them. They ensure that responsibility remains with those involved without taking it on themselves. So again, just to recap, the person doing the venting is doing so to calm down and take responsibility for themselves, and the person allowing that venting or welcoming that conversation isn't allowing it to spread to them. So, just for instance, I've got at least five people on speed dial outside of our church that if I'm experiencing anxiety about something that's happening within our church, I can call them at any moment to talk to them about the stress or anxiety am I experiencing or the questions I have about how to navigate this situation or that situation. And every single one of them isn't gonna just sit there and validate my frustration, although sometimes validation is part of it. But the ultimate trajectory of the conversation is Mac, how are you going to show up as a leader? And I know the fact that they're outside of our church system means they're not gonna take on the anxiety of our system. They're not gonna spread anxiety through our system. They're gonna remain outside of it and offer me more objective input and coaching that make sense. Yeah, so positive triangles, can you guys think of any that you've participated in, either on the receiving end or just being part of it for someone else?

Katie: 25:36

Yeah, I had a smaller example, I guess from a couple of months ago, but my family was all hanging out my sister, her husband, my family, my parents and at the end of our time together my sister and my mom had kind of an interaction We'll put it kind of a heated exchange. And afterwards on her drive home my sister called me and said, hey, what was your take on that interaction? And I said something like yeah, I think you might have been a little hard on mom. And she said, okay, thanks. And she called my mom and apologized and I wouldn't say we always navigate triangles as healthy as that, but I just thought that was a good example of it doesn't need to be some huge conflict, it's just these kind of everyday interactions. My sister reached out to me with the goal of better managing herself. I didn't try to fix it, I didn't try to take on more responsibility than I thought to in that moment, but I thought that was an example of how triangles can be really productive and healthy and they can point towards reconciliation. That, to me, is one characteristic I think that often comes out of positive triangles. There's a conflict you wanna move towards reconciling with the person you have a conflict with, and this third party is being brought in to help you do that.

Mac: 26:54

Yeah, I can think of an example from again. My extended family, all my sisters, live in the Twin Cities and so there's sort of a rotation for the holidays and the rotation is that several of them, with their families, are supposed to come for Thanksgiving, as my parents host this coming year, and they initiated a conversation around well, what if my parents came to them, which would change that rotation, and there was some anxiety that inevitably came to breaking that rotation, especially pertaining to Josie and I. Would we be able to come to the Twin Cities and how would that impact us if we couldn't? And I was really proud of our family because my sisters talked to Josie and I and we were able to, like, give them name, how it impact us, and here's you give them freedom to do what they wanna do as well as my parents. And there wasn't like this you know what I mean Like this negative sort of anxiety around well, I'm frustrated by this or I'm angry about that. It was just kind of like, hey, let's attend to how this would impact each person one to one, and then everybody was kind of free to make their own decisions.

Katie: 28:00

Yeah, I think my husband, Alex, and I do this often with our kids. We've talked about parenting, but we'll often go to each other after a difficult interaction with the child and say like, hey, how do you think I handled that? Like, did you think I was too hard on them, Did you think I could have done this differently or that? And we don't always do it perfectly, but we generally give each other permission to say like yeah, I think you got a little worked up there and I found that to be really helpful.

Mac: 28:26

Yeah, anybody who's in a relationship with a therapist, that's a positive triangle. Obviously there's varying degrees of quality with therapists, just like there's varying degrees of quality in any profession. But a good therapist knows that they're creating a positive triangle on your behalf and the primary focus is for you to improve your own functioning, given whatever relationships you bring into that counseling space right.

Katie: 28:53

Yeah, they're able to give you a perspective that they wouldn't otherwise be able to, that you wouldn't otherwise have.

Mac: 28:57

Yeah, yeah. Now obviously this becomes I mentioned, like having five people on speed dial outside of my context. A therapist is outside of the context. It becomes much trickier and more complex when you're creating a positive triangle within your context, especially when they know the different moving, the other relationships and have relationships with those people as well. What about you, josiah? Any examples?

Josiah: 29:24

Yeah, yeah, I think that positive triangles are. They can also be more than just simple interactions with someone you already know. Sometimes you're inviting someone into a more intimate part of your life. I have an example from my life recently going through a divorce. This last year of my life was a little crazy and I spent sort of a year wondering if my marriage was gonna work and it was sort of confidential because it was just sensitive material of the reason why it was happening and so a lot of people couldn't know and that burden of the one to one relationship being in question and being unstable, being able to involve someone else who I knew was a friend, who knew, I knew had my back and sort of was mature enough to be able to handle the burden of bearing this with me. Because it was more than just a simple spike of anxiety within something. It was a genuine burden of something that I was carrying. And, yeah, but my relationship, especially with Cameron and UMAC, being able to have people that I could trust number one, they weren't gonna go blab it to other people. Number two is just genuinely knowing that they were for me and had my back and were there to support Was an example of a positive triangle that not only helped me sustain through a season that was hard, but also cultivated a much deeper companionship with both of you. That so positive in lots of respects. But I would say that that type of depth of relationship that comes from a maturity that has to be present. If that maturity isn't present, I don't think it would have ended the same way, for me at least.

Katie: 31:25

Yes, so what are some of the things that you saw Mac and Cameron do that helped create a healthy triangle for you?

Josiah: 31:33

Yeah, well, one was confidentiality Knowing that if I talk to you about this, you're not gonna go talk to someone else. That's huge, being able to trust that. Hey, if this is possible, this needs to stay between us, and so that was huge. Number two was they never went down into the pit with me to bash. They didn't speak negatively. They were able to remain objective, at least to the sense of, I should say, neutral. Maybe not objective, but they were able to stay neutral and be there for me, rather than doing the whole gang up on one side and push the anxiety onto someone else, which we already talked about. That was huge, and just continuing to leave me with the work of what was next, like if I was talking about something, maybe it was just like how I'm feeling, and there really wasn't much to do except for, hey, well, I'm here for you, let me know what else I can do if you ever need to talk. Other times it was, hey, what do you think you need to do about that? And the tables were sort of tilted back towards me. This was my work. I was inviting them into it, being very aware that this was going to be a burden on them and I would not have done that with a random person. That would have been unhealthy on my part to do that with a random person that I didn't have relational equity with.

Katie: 33:02

Yeah, so I hear you saying they shared the burden, but they also didn't take on more responsibility than they needed to right.

Josiah: 33:08

They did enough to help me through it, but not enough to take it on themselves.

Katie: 33:14

They didn't try to fix it or control what you did.

Mac: 33:18

And, having been part of that positive triangle, there are a couple of things that I was trying to do as everything unfolded over this past year. For you, one was yes, I wanted to provide a safe space for you to process and talk about the latest developments, with the goal of helping you show up as your best self and stay true to the way of Jesus from start to finish. So there was like sort of an anchor point for me in terms of, yes, I'm listening, I'm not coercing, I'm present. But we also had agreed upon, like this is what we're trying to do, or trying to help you navigate this in light of Jesus.

Josiah: 34:01

Yeah, yeah, you guys, especially you Mack, you definitely were continued to sort of champion say, hey, do your part to stay in things and if the chips fall where they do, continue to remain faithful and to hold out hope.

Mac: 34:19

Yeah.

Josiah: 34:20

So that was also like you were championing me in that way.

Mac: 34:24

I think the second thing that comes to mind is, while I had way more interaction with you than your wife, I tried to do the work regularly of praying and thinking through how do I remain for Josiah and champion God's best work in his life in terms of his involvement and what's transpiring, knowing that she needed something entirely different? So, in other words, like, how do I remain in a position as a pastor who you're part of my community, she's part of the community how do I remain in a position where I can love each of you to the best of my ability, right? So there were some neutrality work I had to do rather than side-taking. And then I think the third thing that I learned and tried to do was be very clear and have regular conversation with you as a staff member around the roles and hats that I found myself wearing as we formed a positive triangle along. I'm not just your friend, I am your friend, but I'm also in charge of our staff, right? I have a leadership hat to wear there and have a larger responsibility to our congregation as well, and so to be able to talk honestly about those. Hey, I've got these other hats that I'm wearing too. This information you're sharing. I wanna be able to be honest about how this is. When does our leadership team need to know? Et cetera, et cetera. That was invaluable for me to be able to tell you here the hats that I'm wearing, and I trust you enough to be able to speak into those dynamics as well.

Josiah: 36:07

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm very grateful. I just been reflecting lately that, I don't know, it just cultivated a lot of like a deep sense of companionship. When you go through something and someone's able to really be there for you in a mature way and I don't know, it just senses a lot of it, just produces a lot of connection and, like I said, companionship. It's just I'm very grateful.

Mac: 36:34

Yeah, when positive triangles are done well, the result is deep relational connection and trust. And of course, there's a spectrum here. Obviously, navigating the possibility of a divorce over a year with a few trusted people is a pretty intense example that most people probably won't experience, but they might experience some sort of crisis in their life pertaining to a child or a change in jobs or whatever where they need that type of maturity from a trusted individual over an extended period of time. Maybe more on the light end would be man, you have an exchange with someone and you just need to call a neutral person to calm down and be reminded that, like I'm not gonna pivot out of emotional reactivity or anxiety, I'm not gonna go to fight, flight or fake. They're gonna challenge me to face my own anxiety so I can show up as a mature presence. And I do that, you guys. There's times when I get stirred up and I need to make a phone call and go here's what's happened and I'm calling you so you can help me calm down and show up as my best self. And it's a five minute conversation and then I navigate way better than had I just charged in all amped up, yeah Right.

Katie: 37:46

Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for sharing, josiah. That's a significant example and, I think, a really helpful one. So thanks.

Josiah: 37:54

Yeah.

Katie: 37:55

So positive triangles, negative triangles they exist. We've probably all been involved in creating those or even just being pulled into one. But let's talk about how to navigate when someone's pulling you into a negative or unhealthy triangle. Can you guys think of examples where this happened to you and, if so, how did you handle it?

Mac: 38:17

I feel like I kind of just dabbled into some of this in sharing some of the dynamics that Josiah and I were talking through over this past year. But one is just to stay focused, or stay neutral and sort of focused on remaining relationally connected to both parties. So you stay neutral and focus on relational connection with both. Now I wanna maybe just provide a disclaimer here. This does not apply when someone's stuck in an abusive or dangerous situation. Right, when someone's in an abusive situation, where there's clear power dynamics at play or they aren't safe, neutrality is not appropriate. So got that Protecting the victim and ensuring their safety is a priority in that moment. But that's not most situations. Mostly examples we've shared aren't that. But rather than taking sides which is sort of the thing that happens when you get sucked into the anxiety itself as you find yourself taking sides you wanna stay neutral and relationally connected to both parties, with the goal of helping both individuals take responsibility for themselves and show up as their best selves in the relationships. So you stay emotionally connected to both parties and then you, to the degree you're invited to do so, you help them take responsibility for themselves. Now that doesn't mean you check your own values at the table. I didn't check my values at the table when you and I were talking. I brought my perspective, my convictions, into our conversation on a regular basis, but it does mean that I'm trying to stay connected and focused on that person taking responsibility for themselves. By the way, they may not like that In fact, I'm pretty sure that they won't because they want you to take sides.

Josiah: 40:04

Right, yeah, it's almost like their response to you when you are being triangulated and you choose to stay neutral. Usually is an indicator of why they're there. It sort of reveals their intention.

Mac: 40:17

Yeah, but let me maybe give an example of this. We had a situation here at our church with a couple who had a really rough season in their marriage and it was discovered that she had essentially been cheating for the entire duration of their marriage on and off, and it had become discovered and sort of put out on the table like now. This is a thing and I knew both of them, knew both of them really well and I was able to try to. I was able to stay relationally connected to both of them as their relationship was imploding and both of them were open to possibly doing the work of moving towards restoration. But the work that each one of them needed to attend to was totally different. For him, being the recipient of oh, my wife just has been having affairs, a lot of it involved attending to and creating space for them to grieve, to own anger, to be present, to how this impacted him, to maybe consider over time the possibility of forgiveness what does that look like, et cetera. It was very much giving permission and helping put boundaries in place so that this stuff would never happen again. For her, the work was totally different. What caused you to get into this cycle? It was attending to all of the work of what led to this behavior and what was amazing was they made it. When everything blew up, they recognized this is a symptom of much larger problems and this is an opportunity to get to the root of those and reestablish a solid foundation. And in my experience, most of the time that is not the outcome. That is not the outcome and I will say none of that would have been possible without both of them being committed to Jesus, like Jesus was the thing that allowed them to lean in and repair and heal and reconcile. So that's just an example of whoa. Two people needed very different things from me. I'm connected to both of them, was able to stay connected but also champion the work that they individually needed to do.

Josiah: 42:28

Yeah, when you're getting pulled into a triangle, it is very difficult. It's a difficult work to not create an enemy out of someone that is in the triangle.

Mac: 42:39

Especially when you're not hearing the same amount from the same like-. You're only hearing one side, yeah if the data you're getting is in balance. It's so tempting to take sides.

Josiah: 42:50

And it's probably worth noting that that is like the natural response, it's the human response, and which is why this work is so important, because loving your enemies is like one of the hallmarks of what it is to follow Jesus. So if you aren't able to identify that, oh, I am in this moment creating an enemy out of this person. It'll just happen so instinctively, which is why this work of emotional intelligence and self-awareness is like learning yourself, understanding yourself to the point where you know when it's happening the for me, I know it Like I'll feel like my, the blood rush to my, like my skin sort of gets hot and I can feel like it a little red in the face. You get like you're angry with someone and in that moment this is just could be from someone telling you something. You have to wait until things calm down, and remaining neutral isn't necessarily saying you don't care. It's just to say that I'm gonna refuse to make an enemy out of someone here and I'm going to, I'm gonna sort of stay back as far as I can to be able to navigate what's the right thing here.

Mac: 43:58

And when I say stay neutral, I mean relationally neutral, and the way you're doing that is by staying connected to both individuals that you have a relationship with. Neutral doesn't mean that I check my convictions, values or at the door and don't have a voice. With that, you know what I'm saying.

Katie: 44:14

I think that's a great clarification and something I was gonna press on, because I don't hear you guys saying that you never see anyone, you never see fault in anyone or anything, and that you just sort of put blinders on and act like, oh, everything's fine and equal. I hear you talking about staying relationally connected and keeping enough distance to be able to help them.

Josiah: 44:33

Yeah, it's like the neutrality requires staying connected to both. It's not disassociating from both, and in order to stay connected to both, that's where I have to be able to do the internal work of not like othering the other person, creating an enemy out of someone who is existing within this triangle.

Mac: 44:53

Yep.

Katie: 44:54

Yeah, that's a great one. Another one, I might add just in terms of how we navigate, and getting pulled into a triangle is name what you can expect. So if you two have a conflict and you're gonna pull me into it, I think it's helpful just to say well, here's what you can expect of me, Mac. And Mac, I've seen you do this while with a triangle you had with your family, and someone came to you and shared some information and you said something like well, here's what you can expect of me. I'm not. You can't expect that. I'm gonna keep this information confidential. I feel like this is an appropriate circumstance for me to share with the other person. Either you're gonna share or I'm going to share. And I remember that example stuck with me because I think it's really helpful, Like we don't have to be what someone else wants us to be, and this is something I think I learned later in life. Just because someone may come to me and want me to be a sounding board to absorb all this negative energy doesn't mean I have to be that for them. And it can be really helpful right up front to say here's what I'm willing to do and here's what I'm not willing to do. I'm not just willing to absorb all this negative energy and just listen to you speak negatively about someone and I'm not gonna sit in that and bash with you. Like you mentioned, Josiah, there certainly may be times where it is appropriate to keep information confidential like you mentioned again, Josiah but there may be circumstances where there isn't, Like in Max, example.

Mac: 46:15

You know if someone-, cameron, shared one the other day. He had a student sort of share that they're suicidal and it was kind of like, well, that's a serious thing. I'm not gonna just sit on that and keep that between the two of you. You need to let your parents know, and so on. So do you wanna do that? Do you wanna do that with me, or do you want me to do that? Right, right. So that would be an example of like here's what you can expect from me in this moment. I'm gonna get you help.

Katie: 46:40

Yeah, yeah, and I think that can especially come into play when you are in relationship with both people, like if there's two parties that have a con Okay, I had an example of this in my own life where I had a relationship with two friends and there was conflict between them and one came to me to dish out about the conflict, but I kind of also had had some conflict with this other friend. So it would have been really tempting in the moment to go like oh, yeah, I totally know what you mean they're so annoying, they're the worst. But at some point I had the guts to say you know what? I'm actually kind of working on some of this conflict myself with that person, and you coming to me isn't really doing good work for me, trying to work on reconciling with them, and so if we're gonna talk about it, here's what I think it should look like, and I don't wanna have to hold information that you're giving me about this person because it's just not, it's not doing good work for me, and then they get to decide whether or not they wanna engage you in that.

Mac: 47:42

Yeah, I think one of those expectations to set, especially when someone maybe assumes or hopes that you're gonna side with them and then use your influence to gang up on the other person is just to name this is how I'm going to relate to you. I'm going to help you take responsibility for yourself and I'm not going to take responsibility for this conflict between you and the other person. That's very clear. That's like a clear way of going. Here's what you can expect from me. Here's how I'm gonna orient to this problem you're experiencing, and having those boundaries and having those conversations I think saves a lot of trouble.

Josiah: 48:20

Yeah, and do that upfront. Don't wait till later to do that. Like. Do it as early on as possible, as soon as you recognize you're being triangulated. Name what you can and can't agree to. I think another one would along the same lines would just be maybe it's about a topic that's difficult for you to discuss and just be honest about what you feel like you can handle Right now. I don't know if I can handle you Dishon about this because it's close to home, or if I. There were definitely times in this last season where if someone wanted to come to me with an issue that they sensed was like oh, I'm struggling with something in my marriage, or wanting to lean on me, I had to be honest and say like there's only so much of this I can handle in this season of my life. So if I don't get back to you right away like I'm just naming that, yeah, and that's for their good. Yes, I don't want you to expect more out of me than I can give, and I don't want to overextend myself and be unhealthy for you and for me, so this is what you can expect. I might not be able to always answer at any given time, because my life is a little crazy right now too.

Mac: 49:31

Yeah, I may not be in a season where I'm objective enough to be able to like help you, take responsibility for yourself, or hey, the issue you're facing. This happens to me a lot. I'm not a therapist, right, so someone might come to some, and I have to be aware of my limitation. You can expect me to help you with these kinds of things, but the thing that you're facing requires this kind of help. And the moment you just jump into a triangle because someone's expecting something of you without being aware of your state of mind, your limitations, man, you can all of a sudden get pulled into something that is out of your depth and ultimately doing a disservice because that other person isn't getting what they actually need.

Josiah: 50:13

Yeah, I think the relational proximity to the issue in question is also worth noting. Like within a family I mean you mentioned some of that as well Like if I think that it's okay to name that if someone in your family or someone close to your family wanted to dish about something going on in your family, just to name that, like I don't know if I'm the best person to do that with, so I'm trying to-.

Mac: 50:39

Which requires some humility bro, like it requires humility to know when you're out of your depth or beyond your limits. Like you need to know your limits and there's been a lot of damage done by people with an over degree of confidence in their abilities to wait into things that ultimately don't fit within their skill set.

Josiah: 50:59

Yeah, yeah. As an aspiring one day therapist, which I'm going to school for right now, it can be tempting to want to like practice before, before I should be. So I do have to be like no, I shouldn't you know, so I can get sucked into that a little bit for sure. Yeah, another one would be. So if remaining neutral is being able to be relationally connected to both people while also not taking on the responsibility. The opposite would be I'm remaining connected to them by taking on all the responsibility from both parties. So now I'm becoming the mediator between two people and I'm the one bearing the anxiety that exists between party A and party B. They're both. I'm absorbing it all as this. I'm not being neutral, I'm kind of the opposite now. So now I'm not able to be neutral and connected. Now I'm just connected to both and I can't remain neutral because all of it exists on me to be the mediator.

Mac: 52:01

Yes, Ed Friedman, who's sort of a family systems guy, name this as the togetherness position. You know, when you've gotten this pulled into a triangle, when you find yourself stressed and anxious about making sure that the two other people are in conflict, stay together trying to keep the peace mediating. That's the togetherness position and you wanna stay out of that.

Josiah: 52:28

Yeah, if you find yourself being the party between two people that won't talk to each other and you're the only person that each of them will talk to and you like, that's a good sign that you're being you're being sort of pigeonholed into this position.

Katie: 52:43

For sure Like classic Enneagram nine peacemaker stuff. Yeah, I would know. Yeah, you would know, because you're not an Enneagram nine, but that's kind of what I think of, though, like I'm just gonna sit here and like force peace between two parties and do whatever I can to make it happen.

Mac: 53:00

Some other minor ones would be don't get attached to any particular outcome. You'll begin over functioning in a triangle when you're attached to a particular outcome that ultimately involves two other people. Again, don't disconnect from either party and also don't rescue either party. So but it can be so hard to sit in anxiety, totally so that's why I'm just gonna say this when you're being pulled into a triangle, you have to be very aware of managing your own anxiety, because you'll be, there will be anxiety triggers for you around what people are expecting of you, around what you're noticing. All of that. You've gotta have an awareness and know how to manage self in those moments.

Katie: 53:48

And again, these things are hard to do upfront, but I think that they make life easier on the backend.

Josiah: 53:54

For sure.

Katie: 53:55

Yeah, it may give you anxiety. I know it does for me. It gives me anxiety to say to someone I can't be this for you, right? I can't do this for you right now. That's hard. Even just saying this, hypothetically is already like me.

Josiah: 54:07

I can tell our faces like slightly red.

Mac: 54:09

I'm like I'm not omnipotent and I need you to know this.

Katie: 54:13

I can't be all things at all times to all people, but I know that doing that will save me anxiety down the road.

Josiah: 54:19

Yeah, yeah, it's, I think it's just one more note would just be it's worth noting how tempting it is and how good it feels to be the person that both people are relying on. Oh, yeah, it can be this ego bump of like I feel so important and I think it's just worth naming that that if you are, if you're feeling honored that both people are the ones trusting you, that's probably a sign that I'm operating in an unhealthy way. I'm taking on the responsibility because it feels so good, but in the backend, like you were saying, it'll produce more anxiety and makes things so much worse. Yep, yeah, yeah, okay. So we covered a lot of things about how to navigate when we're pulled into one and, just like we do on in this entire series, we want to talk about where we see Jesus navigating these things. So where do we see Jesus navigating triangles? The assumption that triangles exist everywhere, so that means he existed in a lot of triangles as well. So where do we see some examples of him in those triangles, navigating them in a healthy way?

Mac: 55:29

Oh yeah, I mean, this isn't just like psychobabble or emotional maturity as a topic that we're kind of imposing on Jesus. Just look at it, pay attention. Here are some things that I noticed. Mary and Martha. So there's this story in Luke 10 where Jesus is traveling with his disciples and they end up staying at Martha's house. She's the homeowner and she has a sister named Mary and Martha, as the homeowner feels the burden of hospitality, of welcoming this entire group of people and having food, et cetera. So she's busy preparing everything for all of these guests, while her sister, mary, is sitting at the feet of Jesus, which is probably worth an entire separate sermon, but that is the posture of a disciple. So she's sitting at the feet of Jesus, assuming the posture of a disciple, while Martha gets increasingly upset that she's not helping her with all the preparations. And what does she do? Out of that frustration, that emotional reactivity, she tries to triangle Jesus. She goes to Jesus and says don't you care that my sister has left me to do all the work by myself. Now what does Jesus do? Does he, you know, tell Mary hey, get up and help your sister. Does he get co-opted by Martha's efforts? No, it's actually quite beautiful. He points out the one-to-one relationship that he has with Mary. Mary has chosen this one thing, and it's the best thing it's to be my disciple and I will not take that away from her. But also, doing that, he invites Martha to do the same thing. In pointing out that Mary has chosen what's better, he's inviting Martha to assume the same posture and be near to him at his feet. It's just this brilliant navigation of a moment where Jesus is getting triangle, you know.

Josiah: 57:26

So if we camp on that situation for a second, put ourselves in Jesus' shoes, what are some of the ways that most of us would have responded in Jesus' position? Like you mentioned? Oh, he might have, like, told Mary to get up and help. What about, like you know what? If, like, any of us might have over-functioned, we could have saw that and been like, oh, I'll stop doing what I'm doing to go help, you know, to go help clean the house or prepare things or whatever. I don't know. I just think it's really interesting when you put yourself in those shoes, how many other responses could have been out of anxiety and it would have looked like just normal responses.

Mac: 58:05

Yeah, this is one of the challenges of seeing. I think this, in how it shows up with Jesus, is because we have to almost imagine our unhealthy responses in order to see how brilliantly Jesus is responding out of health. It's just so easy to gloss over it until you put yourself in the shoes that he's sitting in and go oh, here's how an unhealthy person would have responded, like me, you know. Another example I thought of was the mother of James and John. There's a story in Matthew 20. I think it's in the other synoptics as well, but James and John were disciples of Jesus, they were brothers, and the mother of James and John approaches Jesus with this request for her two sons to sit at Jesus's right and left hand. So basically, hey, can my two boys be your top guys, which is already an interesting triangle. Instead of them asking for that, their mom is doing on their behalf like whatever. But once again, jesus responds by not playing the triangle game. Instead, he points out what it means to be a follower. Hey, can you drink the cup that I'm going to drink? In other words, he's saying, hey, following me, being on my right and left, is going to involve suffering. And then he launches right after that into a teaching on how authority operates in the world. Like you know the Gentiles, they lorded over you, but not so among you. So it's just this brilliant moment where he doesn't get sucked into the triangle but instead names what it means to follow me. Following me is going to involve suffering and pain and hardship and persecution and, by the way, the very thing that you're desiring in this moment isn't how the kingdom works. Authority isn't to be lorded over others. It's a power under others, embodied in self-sacrificial love.

Katie: 1:00:02

Yeah, so you may not even know what you're asking for, nor want that kind of what he's saying.

Josiah: 1:00:07

Or feel the anxiety. Just feel the anxiety or the tension that Jesus would have had. If you're a people pleaser, someone who has a hard time saying no to people, that would have felt tense in the moment in front of a bunch of people.

Katie: 1:00:19

Okay, and you know what's so interesting about that? Just quick tangent. I feel like growing up in church maybe there's some gender stuff here too but I feel like in many ways I received sort of subtle messages that being a good Christian was about being a people pleaser. No one ever said that to me explicitly, but I certainly interpreted more implicit messages. I suppose that being a Christian, especially a Christian girl, was about being nice. And when I look at Jesus in situations like you're talking about Mac, it's just so interesting because he doesn't fit that mold at all. He wasn't unkind to people, but he was strong and he didn't tell them what they wanted to hear.

Mac: 1:00:59

He disrupted people all the time and wasn't anxious about doing so, and again, it wasn't malicious or mean spirited. We actually have to reframe kindness. I think Kindness is not the same thing as being nice. Kindness is having someone else's best interest in mind, right?

Josiah: 1:01:20

Yeah, you're genuinely for that other person and want their good.

Mac: 1:01:24

Right. So when we confuse those two, we're like, oh well, jesus, that wasn't very nice. But when we consider kindness, that no, actually that's in there he's acting in the best interest on their behalf in each one of these scenarios.

Katie: 1:01:39

Yeah, another one that comes to mind is from Matthew 18, where he says if your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you.

Mac: 1:01:46

But it's so much easier for me to go to Josiah and tell him about your faults Of course, of course it is.

Katie: 1:01:53

I'm sure he would gladly listen. No, no, I'm kidding, josiah, I feel like you would be a healthy, you would navigate a triangle in a healthy way. Sometimes, but what he's saying is when someone sins against you, go to them directly, have a private conversation and don't go to shame or humiliate them. Go to them with love, kindness, as you were saying, mack, out of a desire to reconcile I talked earlier about. For me, one question that often comes to mind when I am creating a triangle or getting pulled into one is is this triangle being formed for the purpose of reconciliation or moving towards something that's life-giving and helpful to the other person? And he does say you can bring other people with you, but not until you've talked to that person first. And it just makes me wonder well, how often do we do the opposite? We go to the third party first and then maybe, maybe, if we're lucky, we go back to the person we originally had a beef with.

Josiah: 1:02:49

Yeah, after we've had like 10 hours of conversation with someone else. And we're stewing, we'll go and have some sort of like beat around the bush, sort of like passive aggressive, like kind of talk about what we want.

Mac: 1:03:03

Again to the point that this just like makes anxiety worse. How many times have you experienced something where, if you had just gone to the person and sort of confessed the story you were telling about what just transpired, or whatever, they would have been like? Oh no, that's not what I intended, or this is what I meant when I said and that whole 10 hours of conversation would have been prevented.

Josiah: 1:03:25

Yeah, Almost useless.

Mac: 1:03:26

It's like the sooner you go to the other person and confess the narrative or how you experienced, the quicker clarification. Much needed clarification can happen, et cetera.

Katie: 1:03:35

I've been on the other side of that, where someone comes to me and I'm like, oh, I wish you would have come to me a long time ago. That's not at all what I meant.

Mac: 1:03:40

Well, you said you weren't going to share that. You're breaking trust. I'm totally teasing.

Josiah: 1:03:47

Yeah, it's totally true. Just yeah, it's very true to just go and get the clarity you're looking for Because, like in the lack of clarity, that also produces anxiety. Right, you come up with your own narrative of what's going on, and the quicker you're able to go to that person obviously and obviously this has to be like there has to be safety involved and there's other things to consider but the quicker you go to that person and ask for clarity, not only are you going to get clarity most likely, um but you're also going to build, build trust and safety with the other person to know that, hey, if I have an issue with you, I'm going to come talk to you, but for sure, save yourself a lot of time, a lot of time and and you.

Mac: 1:04:29

But you go in with less certainty If I, if there's a confusion or some relational attention, that happens and I go and go. Man, what was that about I? This is the story I'm tempted to tell myself, or here's how I experienced that moment. Can you speak to that? I'm way less certain three minutes after it happened than after 10 hours of talking to someone else, where they validated and galvanized my position. Now I'm coming in with a case to prove.

Josiah: 1:04:55

This just happened the other day actually. Uh, at staff meeting we discussed some policy things and I expressed some things that I was uncomfortable with and, uh, uh, I, I, I had a reaction in the moment where it probably sound like I was more angry than I was. Um, it just sort of came out and, um, it was towards Cameron and uh, but I think it was like it wasn't even the next day Cameron and I had a check-in about something. Yeah, it was the next day. I mean, he just brought it up, being like I'm just looking for clarity Like seemed like he were really upset and I was like now I actually I was, I was really upset about this and we talked about it and it was great. Yeah, it's like no problem, it's like otherwise he could have stood on it and been like I think Josiah's mad at me and he could have assumed why, and all these other things that were clarified in a five minute conversation.

Mac: 1:05:44

Totally All right. It's practice, practice time, practice practice. Yeah, how can someone practice noticing and navigating triangles? Given all that we've discussed? How do you implement this in your life? What are, what are some practices people can engage in?

Katie: 1:06:02

Yeah, so one we name and probably almost every episode, but it's a good one is. Take some time to reflect. So I would say, just think about times you've experienced and and ways you've participated in triangles and where you're in them right now, cause I guarantee you are in them right now. How have you operated within triangles that have led to maybe healthy outcomes and maybe reconciliation, or how have you operated in ways that have led to unhealthy outcomes? One thing that I know I've thought about myself is like okay, what's my instinct when someone comes to me with a conflict or something they're having with another person? Like, what are some of my, what are some of my defaults that you might want to think about, what dynamics are present? Like, are there dynamics that are present in this triangle that would cause extra tension or stress? I think with families, obviously, this can happen. Is this a triangle, maybe at work, where there's a power dynamic, like, let's say, a boss is coming to you to talk about someone else? Well, that's a tricky, that's a tricky triangle, right, that you're going to have to. You're going to just want to be aware of all the dynamics that that are present. Let's say, a parent is coming to you to complain about another parent or a child and a and a spouse. I think just really having our eyes open to what's happening in the moment and taking time to reflect after the fact will help us just grow in in our ability to navigate triangles when they rise in the future.

Josiah: 1:07:26

Yes, yeah, and if you are taking the time to reflect, you've identified those triangles. You may identify some that are already, that already feel pretty unhealthy, and when you do that, it's helpful just to come up with a plan with what's going to happen next time. Like I know they're going to come to me about this and I feel like it's unhealthy and I haven't clarified myself. So I'm I have a plan that when they talk to me about this, next time I'm going to, I'm going to bring up X, y and Z to try to do that and with along with that would just be like, in relation to that exact same topic, is just clarifying responsibility. Once you've identified them, when you're getting sucked into one, either in the moment or one that you already know you're in, like we talked about before, clarify the responsibility that you're willing to take and what you're not willing to take, and being aware of that on the front end especially, especially on the front end can help, can help keeping that from becoming wonky.

Mac: 1:08:25

Yeah. So you know, reflect, do an audit of all the triangles people you're participating in, clarify your responsibility to the degree that some new boundaries need to be set. And then, finally, I would just remind people, practice staying neutral, you know, stay emotionally connected to both parties. And again, that doesn't mean you're checking your own convictions or values at the door, it just means you're staying relationally connected to each person. That's part of the triangle. We'll also keeping the table tilted towards them, um, taking responsibility for themselves. Big picture, you guys, this is about learning how to react out of principle rather than just simply reacting to the pressure of a relationship. And I'm borrowing there from again, from our friends at the leaders journey. We're learning how to act out of principle around, just respond to the pressure.

Josiah: 1:09:18

Yeah, and if you are wanting to, this is required if you're going to learn to love more like Jesus, because you can't be emotionally reactive and be operating out of love at the same time. I think they're. It's very difficult.

Mac: 1:09:34

Yeah, I mean go back to that example of like hey, can we sit at your right and left hand? What does Jesus do? He highlights the principles of the, of what it means to follow him. You're going to have to suffer and we don't lord authority over others, right? So he doesn't respond to the pressure. He responds out of principle and even names what those principles are. Yeah, cool.

Katie: 1:09:54

So all right, let's rip up.

Mac: 1:09:56

All right.

Katie: 1:09:56

Bottom line. We've talked about triangles and not just the shape. Hopefully, if you've been listening long enough, you know that we are talking about relational triangles, and a relational triangle is just a triad between three people, which can be positive or negative depending on how it's used. Triangles exist in relationships everywhere. They simply just cannot be avoided if you are going to do life with people. The question is how are they being used and how do we choose to operate within them? So in this episode we looked at the difference between positive and negative triangles and we looked at ways to engage triangles in healthy ways, because they can be really helpful in life giving for us.

Mac: 1:10:32

Yeah, yeah. Next time we're going to continue our discussion on how anxiety shows up by discussing over and under functioning. So overfunctioning is when we do something for someone else that they can and should be doing on their own, and then underfunctioning is when we don't do for ourselves something we can and should be doing. So we hope you'll tune in and we will see you next time.

Josiah: 1:10:56

Practice is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at CrosspointWIcom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.