Engaging the Dechurched with Compassion and Empathy

Katie: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Today we're continuing a series on what some experts are calling the great de-churching. We are currently living in the single greatest religious shift in American history. Forty million adults who once attended church no longer do so, and most of that change has taken place in the last 25 years. The result of this de-churching is more than just diminished church attendance the seismic shift is dramatically reshaping the communities that we live in.Katie: 0:38

So why are people leaving the church? What exactly are they missing out on? What does it look like to engage the de-churched in a Christ-centered way? Answering these questions is what we're setting out to do. We believe this is a discussion that needs to take place within our churches, because if we are to be faithful followers of Jesus in today's landscape, we must figure out what it looks like to engage a de-churched culture. Today, we're going to look at what it might look like to engage the people who have de-churched in our lives. So let's get into it.

Josiah: 1:18

Welcome everybody. My name is Josiah,

Katie: 1:21

I'm Katie

Mac: 1:21

and I'm Mac.

Josiah: 1:23

So, guys, it is Christmas time. Christmas time is here. I would love to hear what are some of your favorite things about Christmas.

Mac: 1:40

I enjoy the food at Christmas time, like there's all these traditions around holiday food in our family and it's always so good. So, yeah, we growing up used to do fondue on Christmas Eve, which was just kind of like a once-a-year type thing and super interesting and it would slow things down because everybody's sort of like putting what they want on the skewer and then you have to wait for it to cook and so everybody's talking and just slows it down. That's fun. So some of those types of things where it's like, hey, these are traditional things we do and it's delicious and it's presence, it creates presence for us, like being together, that I just really enjoy.

Josiah: 2:25

Yeah.

Katie: 2:27

Yeah, food's a good one. I've been really loving how my house is decorated this year. So I'm not like a big house decoration person, I'm not someone who has like the fall decor and the Easter stuff and whatever, but I just love like getting up in the morning. We have these like twinkling lights on the mantle and our Christmas tree is up and it just feels so cozy. The fireplace. I love it. I really appreciate like walking into a home that just like screams Christmas cozy.

Mac: 3:00

Yeah, there's some movies we usually watch home alone at some point during the holidays. Growing up, I remember that one, the Christmas story where he asked for a rifle. Can I share a funny story? I'm walking out the door this morning to come here to church and Josie's like, well, never a dull moment with Griffin. I'm like, oh no, what happened? Griffin's very orally fixated. It's sort of a characteristic moment with Griffin. I'm like, oh no, what happened? Griffin's very orally fixated. It's sort of a characteristic of Down syndrome. So apparently it's like negative digits today, super cold, Like this is the first day of the year, this winter season, where you walk outside and if you breathe through your nose, your nose hairs freeze right. So I guess they're getting to school. And we walk him to school, get them all bundled up and walk to school. He decided to stick out his tongue and put it on the stroller. No, and it got stuck. No way they had to take it off and he was like bleeding everywhere.

Katie: 4:02

Oh no, oh my gosh.

Mac: 4:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was all over his scarf.

Mac: 4:08

It was like yeah, totally so. I immediately thought of the Christmas story this morning, because that is just such a classic scene where he gets his tongue stuck on a flagpole.

Katie: 4:15

My son got his tongue stuck on the stroller that scene is going to carry a whole new level of meaning now every time you watch that movie literally bleeding all over, oh that sounds so painful.

Mac: 4:28

I'm laughing because it's just kind of like it's Griffin.

Josiah: 4:31

I remember as a kid we would like dare each other to do that.

Katie: 4:35

Yeah.

Josiah: 4:35

Maybe we'd get stuck and never like stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck.

Mac: 4:39

Frost, yeah, oh gosh.

Josiah: 4:44

Yeah, I like all the feels with Christmas. I love listening to jazzy instrumental renditions of Christmas songs, chilling out in the fireplace. Honestly, my favorite moment is always at Christmas that moment after, okay, presents are done and kids are playing with their stuff and you sit down, either have like a cup of coffee or something, and that feeling when, like all the rush to push towards Christmas is done and you can just sit down and enjoy.

Josiah: 5:22

It Usually only lasts a little bit of time, but when I think of like my favorite part of Christmas, I think of that moment, yeah, and usually the house is a mess, it's not clean, yet that is a good moment. It's like, okay, it's done, like all the rush and now we just sit.

Katie: 5:38

Yeah.

Mac: 5:39

I feel like I share a moment particularly with you, josiah. Every year around Christmas that fills me up, and it's typically at the end, the last Christmas Eve service, whatever that is, because it's similar to that. It's like all this, like you know, energy and planning. And then finally, there's like the execution of the service, and I just have years of memories of like getting through Christmas Eve and the building has sort of like you know, people filed out and you're sort of sitting there and you're like that was amazing yeah like we got to worship together yeah

Mac: 6:15

it's a good feeling, for sure. Well, speaking of getting, uh, your taste buds ripped off by freezing cold poles. Um, we're in a series right now on what experts are calling the great de-churching. As we said in our intro, we're living in the greatest religious shift in American history. Roughly 40 million people who once belonged to a church meaning they attended church at least once per month have now left the church, and now they go less than a year, and we will feel this at Christmastime.

Mac: 6:43

I remember, just a decade ago, christmas used to be this thing where, like, you'd have so many visitors, right, you had to, like, plan, how many services do we need to have, and so on. Well, you know what? Now, studies show that less than 50% of Americans will even attend at Christmas time. So there's a shift happening, there's a mass exodus happening from the church, and this mass exodus has all taken place in the last 25 years and it's hard, I think, to wrap our minds around the number. Right, it's 40 million people. It's hard to wrap your mind around that, so I'm trying to provide reference points for people. This is somewhat comparable to, like, all the people living in new york city, chicago and la combined. All right, it's wisconsin has roughly six million people, so this is like 6.5 wisconsin's it's like the entire state of california.

Mac: 7:40

That's what we're talking about, so this is not an insignificant number. It's a mind-boggling, massive amount of people. So we're in this series because it feels important. In the first episode, we attempted to name some of the five biggest reasons why people are de-churching, and we talked about things all the way from church hurt to deconstruction, to life transitions, and we tried to do this in a non-defensive way, full of compassion.

Mac: 8:10

As I've engaged those who have de-churched, listened to their stories and their reasons for leaving. There's so much that I feel like I can affirm the church needs reforming, right. We have not been shy about naming some of the ways the church needs to be reformed in this podcast, and I just want to say again these are people that I deeply love and care about. I sympathize with them. So I ended up in a conversation with someone that I absolutely loved just last week and he and his wife used to attend our church and left a couple of years ago, and much of the reasons for their departure I could relate to and affirm, and so it's just to say and remind us that those who have de-churched, they're not ignorant or stupid. These are people we love and care about. So we want to keep that front and center. In our second episode, we shared some of the things we believe those who have de-churched are missing out on, things like being connected to the heart and the mission of God in the world, being part of a supportive community, a community that's diverse, impactful and transformative and we named. Of course you can find some of these things in other places. Of course you can, and of course the church isn't doing all of these things very well, of course, but the church is one of the few places that's trying to do all these things at the same time, and many of the people I talk to that have de-churched often admit that they're missing some of these key ingredients. So I want to be clear Our last episode wasn't an apologetic to put the de-churched in their place.

Mac: 9:43

That wasn't our posture, but rather we were just saying here's why we, as people who work on a church staff and are giving our lives to this, here's why we're willing to give our best here. All right, and so today we're gonna wrap up the series by talking about how to engage those who have de-churched. If 40 million people have de-churched in the last 25 years, the 40 million people have de-churched in the last 25 years. The chances are fairly high that you're going to meet with someone who has de-churched, interact with them, or maybe you already are in a relationship with someone who has de-churched, and so our sneaking suspicion is that this is a prevalent. This will be a prevalent thing in each one of our lives. So today, we want to have a conversation about what it looks like to relate to those who have de-churched in ways that are constructive and helpful, rather than hurtful and harmful. So that's where we're headed today.

Josiah: 10:29

Yeah, yeah, and before we get too far into that, I want to name this as almost like a disclaimer at the top of the conversation that this is more than just a topic. I know you already alluded that to this, mac, but these are real people, you know they're people we all know and love. And you know we're pretty aware that, although most of our audience is probably made up of church goers, we know that some of you listening fall into the D church category and we want you to hear our heart, that we have a heart that everybody who follows Jesus could experience authentic church community in a way that you know lines up with those things Mac was mentioning earlier. And for those of us who are listening and we are, you know, find ourselves in church and we're engaging this conversation we're going to avoid broad assumptions and judgments and embrace it with a sense of curiosity, but more than just asking why, a compassionate curiosity that actually cares about knowing why, so that we can connect with the people in our lives.

Katie: 11:45

Yeah, and in order to talk about how to engage the de-church, it might also be helpful to discuss how not to engage the de-church. So, related to what you're saying, Josiah, we've tried to get at this in our previous episodes, but I think we've shared some. We have some shared convictions around what's really unhelpful when it comes to engaging those who are de-churched. What would you guys say we should make sure not to do?

Mac: 12:05

Yeah, I agree that this should be our starting point. I mean, many of the people I know who have de-churched in part they did so because of the relational dynamics they experienced within the church and, unfortunately, many of the ways Christians continue to engage them only reinforce the reasons why they left in the first place. So, again, the guy I talked to last week this was it. He's like here's how we experienced Christians growing up and many Christians in the church that's not everybody, so there were disclaimers there but now, when they continue to interact with their family and with some other Christians, they continue to reinforce the negative stereotypes that aren't good. So, yeah, I think we have to get clear on here's some of the ways that we can engage that are hurtful and harmful and we wanna avoid those. So one thing I would say is don't pull the levers of fear, guilt or shame. Don't leverage guilt, fear or shame to manipulate someone or attempt to manipulate or coerce someone into returning to church. I just find this really unhelpful and I'll say much of what I want to contribute about how not to engage. I think has a lot of parallels with how messed up evangelism can be, because, like some of the primary ways people have been taught to share the quote, unquote good news. It honestly doesn't sound like good news, because they're pulling the levers of fear, guilt and shame in order to get someone to pray a prayer or something like that, and so fear. Hey, if you were to die tonight, do you know where you'd go? Is it heaven or is it hell? That's a fear tactic, right? Guilt have you ever told a lie? Well, that makes you a liar.

Mac: 13:42

So the entry point is trying to convince someone of their moral depravity, right, and that they're guilty. Shame. God sees everything you've done and can't bear being around you Right Now. The point is because I've heard the counter responses well, those things are true. Like you're guilty, you're this. The point isn't whether these things are true or not. Of course they are. Of course those things are true. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and I know the verses. But the point is this is not how Jesus did evangelism right. You don't see Jesus walking around Galilee pulling the levers of fear, guilt and shame to coerce people and do a decision. He just doesn't engage people that way. These are actually the primary tools that Satan uses to keep us in bondage.

Katie: 14:26

Yeah.

Mac: 14:27

Right. He accuses us, leverages fear and uses shame techniques, and it's clear in Romans 2, it's the kindness of the Lord that leads to repentance. So while God can and has used some of these I think malformative gospel presentations to draw himself to us, that's because of how big his grace is, not because those tactics are the way that we should be operating. And my concern is that we can do the same thing when it comes to engaging the de-churched. So a fear tactic might involve employing some sort of scare tactic like hey, you're going to lose your faith if you walk away from the church in order to try to get them to return to church.

Mac: 15:12

Or guilt might involve emphasizing duty or one's obligation to be part of a church. You're letting God down and not being obedient to God by attending a church. Maybe shame might be something like you used to be such a strong Christian, right, what's happened? Some of these strategies again. Some people would respond by going. But they work and I would say, okay, maybe in the short run, but I'm convinced this is just not how God relates to us. Rather, when it comes to engaging the de-church, we gotta learn how to engage with cruciform love, that's, cross-shaped love, rather than manipulate people using these types of levers.

Katie: 15:53

Yeah, this makes me think of a friend I had that recently de-churched and deconstructed so she left the church and she walked away from faith altogether. And leading up to that point she had a series of conversations with her pastor and church leadership about all sorts of questions. Questions about the Bible how do we know the Bible's true? It was written so long ago. How do we know that Jesus is who he really says he is? So she had this long kind of journey of conversations and questions that she didn't feel like were answered well. But in her last conversation, what she would describe as like what became the last straw for her, she was talking to her pastor and finally he looked at her and said, all right, you know, he did the Pascal's wager thing. Okay. So he said, if I believe in God and I'm wrong, then like, what's the harm to me?

Mac: 16:43

Sure.

Katie: 16:46

But if you don't believe in God and it ends up, then you're wrong. Well then you're going to pay for it for all of eternity. And that, to her, was that fear-based tactic that she, in her mind she went if that's what you're using to keep me here, like I'm done, and I think to her it made it seem like well, hey, if that's the foundation that it's underneath this faith, then it's not a faith that's worth holding onto.

Mac: 17:08

So I guess.

Katie: 17:09

The unfortunate part for me in that story is that pastor felt the need to rely on something.

Mac: 17:17

Came down to this sort of a wager.

Katie: 17:18

Yeah, when there's such a more beautiful invitation that we'll get into. But I just have tons of stories like that of friends who grew up in faith context with guilt, shame, fear and many, if not all, of them have walked away from faith entirely.

Mac: 17:32

Yeah, I alluded to a story earlier where I was in a conversation with a couple this past summer who I'm close to. I enjoy this couple. They've de-churched. But the conversation was happening among a group of us and they started to name that they no longer attend a church and someone else who was present got super reactive. You could tell that information upset them and the primary lever they used was guilt. They essentially sent the message like hey, good Christians go to church, which of course implies you're not a good Christian. And so what happened? They immediately sort of shut down. They stopped talking about.

Mac: 18:07

You know, you could just tell it was like sort of a conversation, ender, and I had the opportunity to circle back to the conversation and reopen it. But it's just to say, man, if the way you're engaging with someone who's not part of a church causes them to shut down which you may not be responsible for I get People can have their own stuff that causes them to shut down, which you may not be responsible for. I get people can have their own stuff that causes them to shut down and they're responsible for their triggers. But it's at least worth reflecting. Did I contribute to that dynamic, right? It might not just be them. Maybe you contributed. The way you related to them wasn't conducive for safety or a spiritual conversation, to flourish or begin. That make sense, yeah.

Josiah: 18:48

Yeah, if you don't, if we can't find a good like, if we can't find a way to manage our own anxiety and those types of conversations as church co-workers, we end up reacting out of that rather than being responsive to the Holy Spirit. And I think that's really important because these types of tactics don't allow people even the opportunity to own why they left, like if we just pull on these things, we're trying to essentially own it for them. We're taking the responsibility of saying I got to get you back, rather than being present, tilting the table, tilting the table towards them, asking questions and allowing them to own why they left.

Mac: 19:32

Yeah, we sort of take it on ourselves. The bullseye here is Jesus, you guys. I mean Jesus gives a mass, gives us a masterclass and what it looks like to interact with a wide variety of people that are spiritually all over the place, and, by and large, you don't see people turtling up or shutting down because of the way Jesus is talking to them. It's actually the exact opposite. They're seeking him out, they're wanting to talk with him, they're wanting to be with him, right? So there's something significantly wrong if we're leveraging things that are producing the exact opposite.

Katie: 20:04

While using the name Jesus.

Mac: 20:05

Yeah, and betraying the way of Jesus in the process. So, that's the first thing I would say. Again, lots of connections and maybe we could do an episode on this in the future just around evangelism in general and what that looks like. But I think pulling the levers of fear, guilt and shame do horrendous work when it comes to entering this conversational space.

Katie: 20:23

Yeah, yeah. Maybe another tactic that does not do good work is being argumentative. Whatever, I totally disagree with you. I mean, I'm a trained lawyer, so this one could be really tough for me. But I don't think it's just me. I think it's kind of human nature, anytime we encounter someone who thinks differently than us, to want to change their minds. And I think one of the ways that we try to change people's minds is through arguments and facts and reason. I remember being a kid my dad would sometimes take me to these like debates.

Mac: 20:53

Oh, I can totally see him doing that. Oh my gosh.

Katie: 20:55

Loves that stuff. Like seven day creation, like one person would be debating for it and one would be against it and he loved it. It was fine. I enjoyed spending time with my dad, but but I, of all the debates I've ever witnessed, I mean that stuff.

Mac: 21:08

My dad took me to baseball games.

Katie: 21:12

I'm like seven. We're like arguing, debating on the way home, like deconstructing the arguments. But no, I think of all the arguments I've ever witnessed, whether it's like a debate or just in normal life, I can't recall a single time I've ever seen someone change their mind as a result of an argument. Right, can you guys? I think it doesn't really happen. As much as we'd like to think differently. It's not often that someone goes oh okay, I see what you mean. I guess I'll join your church and begin to follow Jesus or whatever. That doesn't happen.

Katie: 21:40

And like you said, mac, we needn't look further than Jesus. If we look in the Gospels, jesus didn't argue with people, just like. He didn't use fear, guilt and shame, and I think the reason is because he didn't try to control people, like he gave them a lot of freedom to think what they wanted to think and feel what they wanted to feel. He respected their agency and their autonomy. So again, I think it's important to keep our eyes on Jesus and go well, how did he do this? And when it can feel so tempting to really get like sucked into needing to double down and prove our point, just don't do it. It doesn't get you anywhere. One caveat would be I'm not saying don't be prepared with answers when questions come Right First. Peter 3.15 says always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect. So those are key words there for me gentleness and respect. I think that will get us a lot farther than being argumentative.

Mac: 22:37

Yeah, those are posture words, right, and it's hard, like let's just say, okay, this is hard. And it's hard Like let's just say, okay, this is hard, and partly because tapping into your field, josiah, I mean, you're in school for psychology and so on. But when someone disagrees with us, we often experience that as a threat, right. So someone challenges you or says, oh, I don't see it that way, and what happens is it activates our amygdala, which is responsible for processing those threats, and we go into fight or flight. And so when we engage with someone who's different than us, we experience it as a threat and we respond like we're face-to-face with a grizzly bear, but in fact you're just being faced with somebody who thinks or believes differently. You're just in a conversation. So instead of remaining calm or relationally connected, we get big and loud or we run away or whatever. And so there is some work to do.

Mac: 23:31

I think, kind of piggybacking on what you said, katie, is just to recognize hey, there's some work I have to do, probably in my own body, to remain calm and sort of lower the volume on. Hey, I'm not under attack here, I'm not being threatened here. Take a few deep breaths, you know, and then there's probably some work we have to do to regain our prefrontal cortex. You know, tricia Taylor often says hey, when I get curious, when I get furious, I get curious, in other words like orient with questions, and that shifts us from being emotionally reactive to like cognitively engaged, and I really like what you said, that people usually don't respond by being put in their place intellectually, like you can win the debate and actually lose the exchange if that makes sense.

Josiah: 24:21

Yeah, yeah. I think that often we argue out of our own insecurities often so I think often when we engage these things from an argumentative posture generally, we're sort of afraid to let someone in our lives believe differently than us. It takes some good differentiation in order to do that well and honestly. That will go well beyond just engaging the D church. It'll probably help in a lot of family relationships and things as well, Totally being able to disagree with someone and walk away and having it be okay.

Mac: 25:00

Go back and listen to the EQ series we did on emotional intelligence and maturity, because it's impossible to do this work without some degree of emotional maturity and self-regulation Right.

Josiah: 25:14

Yeah, yeah. Another one I would name is don't be judgmental or dismissive. I was reflecting on this. I think this is actually a very tricky one for people, especially if you've grown up in an environment where you were raised to dismiss people. What do you mean by that? So when someone is in and they're in the church and they adhere to the belief systems that you believe within the group, then they're in, but the second they start questioning that it becomes a threat to the group. The group and you can watch, like as a kid. You could watch the group behavior start to orient to these people differently. Rather than welcoming questions and saying let's talk about it, or let's sit in the tension Like, hey, I have questions too, let's sit with this together, love to talk with you more about it. It became, oh, they're backsliding, we need to pray for them, and a lot of those issues end up becoming dismissed rather than attended to.

Mac: 26:28

So, instead of creating like a hospitable space to remain present to those who have questions or whatever they're questioning, it's almost like the group, out of a sense of threat, helps them hit the eject button through rejection and judgment.

Josiah: 26:42

Yeah, and I think for the eject button through rejection and judgment, yeah, yeah, and I think for the most part, like that was encouraged.

Josiah: 26:57

I mean maybe not like overtly, but yeah, as I reflect on, and you know I don't want to put too much blame on my environment, but I just remembered that judgment, that judgmental posture towards people was very much ingrained in me and it took many years, many, many years, and you can still feel it bubble up.

Josiah: 27:11

I'm not going to blame it all on the upbringing. I think all of us have a tendency to do that. You look at other people who do it differently, believe something differently, and you start dismissing them for being different. So I think it takes a lot of maturity to reach a point where you aren't relating to people that way. But I think that where the you know, I guess where the rubber meets the road is, we're never going to grow as a community or as people if we can't learn to listen and take seriously the experiences of people who have left and if you find yourself dismissing them, dismissing those experiences before you actually even hear them out, because you think you know better we're not going to grow, Like our church community isn't going to grow.

Josiah: 27:58

I mean, you know, the reality is. We talked about it was it last week or the first part of this series where, in reality, a lot of the reasons why people have left are very legitimate. They're things that were very legitimate experiences.

Mac: 28:18

And they highlight things we need to attend to as a church.

Josiah: 28:22

It ends up thwarting our whole process of growth as a church community to not learn to grow in these areas.

Mac: 28:27

To the degree we dismiss someone's experience in the church, we actually short circuit our own transformation because it might be highlighting an area that we need to attend to. There's a great book I would recommend when it comes to this point you're making, on not being judgmental or dismissive. It was written by Greg Boyd, called Repenting of Religion.

Katie: 28:53

You had me read that, if you remember, when we came back to Crosspoint in 2019.

Katie: 28:58

Did you read it, I did you and I just started dialoguing when I came back to Crosspoint and it was kind of along these lines to some extent and you recommended I read Rep. I did you and I just started dialoguing when I came back to Crosspoint and it was kind of along these lines to some extent. And you recommended I read Repenting of Religion, and I just came across some notes the other day that I had taken from that book. It was so good.

Mac: 29:11

Yeah.

Katie: 29:11

It was so helpful and so good.

Mac: 29:14

Yeah, greg. In that book he argues that our tendency to judge people is actually tied up with the very first sin in Genesis 3, where we're sort of grasping for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Like we get to determine or discern what is good and evil, and when we do that we're standing in judgment over other people. So there's a posture of superiority, like we're elevating ourselves above people. But we're actually treading on God's territory too, because God is the one who judges, not us. We're playing God in those moments and the biggest takeaway or thread is you can't be loving and judging people at the same time.

Mac: 29:57

Judgment is all about ascribing worth to yourself at cost to another person. You're evaluating them in a way that makes you feel superior. So that's the work judgment does. You're subtracting from the worth of someone else in order to add worth to yourself, and cruciform, calvary-like love is the exact opposite of that. It's actually ascribing worth to another person at cost to yourself. So I really encourage you to pick up the book Repenting of Religion. It's a little longer read.

Katie: 30:32

It's really good, is it? If I remember correctly, no, it's not Okay.

Mac: 30:36

I have like a measure system that I use when I'm like recommending a book, like kind of like a numerical system of maybe one to four of. One is super easy. Two is maybe a little bit harder, but still written at a lay level all the way to four, which is like you better be ready to put your thinking cap on. I'd probably put this at like a 1.5.

Katie: 30:53

Well, I think I just had a baby at that point.

Mac: 30:57

It's pretty accessible.

Katie: 30:59

No, I like how you explained it, because I could hear a response to that being well, we're supposed to be discerning and know the difference between good and evil, but I hear you fleshing out the difference between being discerning about what's good and from God and not from God, and judging people and ascribing worth to them.

Mac: 31:17

And of course, he'll go into all of those key passages where we learn to distinguish between discernment and judgment. One is forbidden, the other one we actually need to do in our everyday life.

Josiah: 31:27

So yeah, One thing that I think is worth noting before we move, before we move on to this point, is you may be thinking I was thinking the same thing, katie. The uh, the response from some people might be well discerning is an important part of our spiritual development. Being discerning and wise and also like being able to judge what's right and wrong for myself and to be able to follow Jesus. All of that's great. So let's say you have determined that this person is making the wrong choice for their life. Well, congratulations. You have just identified someone that you should be pursuing in relationship because that's what Jesus did. Yep, identified someone that you should be pursuing in relationship because that's what Jesus did when he got flack for spending all of his time with the quote-unquote sinners. What was his response? He said I didn't come for the healthy, I came for the sick. So if you've identified these people as like quote-unquote wrong, well then that means you should probably move toward them.

Mac: 32:24

That's absolutely right and having had this conversation with a lot of people, don't use discernment to dismiss the larger point, which is don't be judgmental and dismissive.

Josiah: 32:36

You know what I mean. It's like oh my goodness.

Mac: 32:38

Yes, of course there's room for discernment and I can provide some nuance to go. This is what that looks like in a healthy way, but don't hide behind. Oh, of course there's room for discernment and I can provide some nuance to go. This is what that looks like in a healthy way, but don't hide behind. Oh, we need to be discerning in order to continue to practice judgmentalism and dismissiveness. All right, and there?

Josiah: 32:53

are a large handful of passages from Jesus that would back up your point, right, okay, okay. So we talked a lot about what we shouldn't do, and we do want to avoid all of those things. They reduce safety and relational connection, and all of these things that keep us from actually being in relationship with people. So what does it look like then? What can we actively do to embody the way of Jesus towards people who have de-churched? What are some things that we can do on the positive note?

Mac: 33:31

The first thing I would say is you have to discern. Going back to that word discern, you have to discern their degree of openness. This is like step one, free of openness. This is like step one. There was a guy named Edwin Friedman and he was a rabbi. He's since passed, but he was a rabbi and an expert in family systems theory, wrote several books, did a lot of organizational consultation and leadership and so on, but he wrote a short little book called Friedman's Fables. Little book called Friedman's Fables. Okay, and it's a collection of these short fictional stories, sort of these allegorical tales that get at family systems theory and sort of patterns of how people relate and behave. It's a really fun read. I read this book maybe four or five years ago on spring break, on a spring break, and there was this paragraph right at the beginning that I've read. I've pulled this book off the shelf and I've probably read it about 30 or 40 times.

Josiah: 34:28

Wow.

Mac: 34:30

And I want to read it to you. Okay.

Katie: 34:32

The whole. Thing.

Mac: 34:33

This is just paragraph, not the entire book. Here's what he says. He says the colossal misunderstanding of our time is the assumption that insight will work with people who are unmotivated to change. Communication does not depend on syntax or eloquence, or rhetoric or articulation, but on the emotional context in which the message is being heard, in which the message is being heard. People can only hear you when they are moving toward you and they are not likely to when your words are pursuing them. Even the choicest words lose their power when they are used to overpower. Attitudes are the real figures of speech. This will help you in marriage.

Katie: 35:25

This will help you in parenting. Parenting, yeah, older children, yep.

Mac: 35:28

People can only hear you when they're moving toward you. That's like the key insight Don't matter how smart, how eloquent, how articulate you are, how airtight your argument is, articulate you are, how airtight your argument is, they're only going to hear it if they're moving toward you. Man, I can't tell you how many times I've made the mistake of assuming I can convince someone who's moving away from me. Oh, yeah, right. And it goes back to your point, katie, which is like hey, I can lawyer up in this moment and give an airtight argument that should bring you to your intellectual knees, but if I, if they're not open to you, it's a fruitless endeavor and you actually win. You lose the exchange even though you win the argument. Okay, jesus already knew this. Edwin Friedman, as brilliant as he is, is not even close to as brilliant as Jesus. He's just elucidating or naming something Jesus is already acutely aware of. Okay, this is why, to me, this is my opinion.

Mac: 36:29

But in Luke 10, this is why, when Jesus sends out the 72, he told them to look for persons of peace. Okay, in Luke 10, he says, when you enter a house, first say peace to this house, which was a customary Jewish greeting shalom to this home. That's what Jesus is telling them to do. If anyone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them. If not, it will return to you. If your peace is reciprocal, he says stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you. Do not move around from house to house. So Jesus is instructing these 72. You're going to go out to these villages and you're going to look for people at peace. How are you going to do that? Well, you're going to declare peace, peace on this home. And if they reciprocate peace, well then you're going to stay there and eat and enjoy their hospitality. Right, go where the grace is.

Mac: 37:22

If someone does not reciprocate peace, well then move on. And I think it's the same with us. This is the first step, it seems to me, and it's a crucial one is asking is this person who has de-churched, a person of peace? Are they open to you? Are they moving toward you? Because, if not, no amount of dialogue or insight that you provide will work with people who are unmotivated to change right Now I'm not saying because I've shared this person of peace concept with people many times I'm like so if someone's not a person of peace, do you just like reject them? No, you do what Jesus did. You were just saying how did Jesus relate to people? So you continue to stay present to there and wait for that posture to change, right?

Katie: 38:06

Yeah, yeah. This again makes me think of that friend I was talking about earlier when we were dialoguing about her journey out of the church and out of faith altogether. She brought up a number of things that I thought, man, I would love to talk more about that. I thought, man, I would love to talk more about that. You know, we've been talking about deconstruction as a church for a while and I had so many good thoughts I felt like I would have loved to share.

Katie: 38:28

But I kind of put no, not zingers Like genuinely just thoughtful dialogue. I would have loved to have some more dialogue, some deeper dialogue with her and be able to share some of my own thoughts in a loving way, but I maybe put a couple of feelers out there and she wasn't really open to that. Like she wanted to tell me her story and that was it. There was no openness and so, you know, in that moment I just kind of had to back off, like it wouldn't have done any good to continue to try to engage in conversation when she just really wasn't looking for that. So, yeah, I agree, I don't think we want to chase after people or badger them. It just backfires.

Mac: 39:05

My therapist calls those test balloons. By the way, like you're getting the way you discern a person of peace like Jesus is greeting shalom to this home. It's a test balloon, right. You float it their direction and if they pop it you go oh, they're not interested. Yep, right, what would you say, josiah? Anything?

Josiah: 39:22

Yeah, I just like on a positive side. You'll know when someone is open. You know I played in two softball leagues this summer. Normally I just do the one we have like a church men's summer. Normally I just do the one we have like a church men's league. But I decided to join another one from someone at the gym. It was a co-ed league. Anyway, got to build relationships with lots of people that I would not have. But I can't tell you I lost count of the amount of conversations where people were clearly curious and open to discussing their issues with church or just their issues about why they don't go, things like that. And there was this couple I developed a friendship with and I can't tell you the amount of conversations we had where they were clearly open to wanting to have the conversations and my role was not convincing or anything, it was just asking questions and you can tell when there's the openness there. So you're discerning a moment when clearly there was an openness.

Josiah: 40:31

You had a test balloon, you're like okay they're not ready for that, but there are going to be lots of opportunities if you look for them, where people are clearly open.

Mac: 40:40

Yeah, this will save you from some frustration along the way if you just start with going. Is this person open to me or spiritually seeking? I have two people that are. They actually know each other and they're both have de-churched. One is a person of peace, in my opinion. The other one isn't Kind of like you're describing the one who is very open. They love talking about it and asking questions and you can tell they're genuinely curious and it's just this different vibe altogether. What if we filled out for a moment?

Mac: 41:16

I would say this is one face that a person who's not open can take Like. One way it can manifest is antagonism and argumentation. So with this other guy that has de-churched, love and care about him a ton every time it comes up, he just wants to debate, he just wants to debate, he just wants to argue, and I've learned that's actually counterproductive because you're not, we're not having intellectual dialogue with a genuine desire to orient towards truth or openness or discovery. It's just have an argument. So maybe to summarize, what I'm trying to get at is Josiah, yes, I do think you'll be able to tell when someone's open. I think that when someone is closed, it can take a variety of forms, one of which is debate and antagonism.

Josiah: 42:04

All right. So once you have discerned a degree of openness and someone is, the next step is simply just to get curious about why I think of this book I read recently I actually keep it on my desk because it has some cool references. But uh, it's called the six conversations, um, by Heather Holloman. She's a college professor and she writes in the book about how important it is for people of faith to learn how to have good conversations with people, and she actually teaches her students um on how to do this, and one of the things she references is a great way to disarm someone who is who believes something very drastically different than you, and they're adamant about it. It's just to ask them, like I would be so curious to know the story as to how you arrived at that conclusion, like I would love to hear the story because that's fascinating to me, because I don't necessarily agree with that.

Josiah: 43:02

You must have a lot of good reasons to believe that, so that there's this disarming posture of like actually wanting to know why someone is the way they are, and in this context I think it's the same thing. You can lower defenses a lot by just simply getting curious. It keeps conversations from turning into arguments and actually allows you to learn something, and learn something about their story. Mentioned this multiple times in this episode already, but the act of curiosity and asking questions is a way to you know, get to know someone, but beyond that, also like building connection with them.

Katie: 43:47

Yeah, I feel like that's good advice. I mean this a lot of the stuff applies outside of just even the church or de-churching context. This is just good ways to relate to people in a Jesus way.

Katie: 43:57

I mean talk about kind of making assumptions about people, think about politics oh, you vote this way, so therefore you must X, y and Z Like it's such, it's so ingrained in us, I think to want to make assumptions and to kind of put people in a box. Oh, you walked away from faith, so you might, you must think this, this and this. Or oh, you walked away from a church. Well, therefore you must not be a strong Christian, and so I think it's such a good reminder to maintain that curious posture and for some reason, it feels like sometimes within the church it can be extra hard for us.

Mac: 44:24

Yeah. Well, and this is the heart behind that first episode in this series is we wanted to make sure we didn't lump everybody who's de-churched into the same profile or category. Right? Not everybody has left for the exact same reason. So when we talk about getting curious to your point, Josiah, why did they de-church? What were their reasons for de-churching? What experience played a factor in that decision? What was their upbringing? What was their story?

Mac: 44:52

And as you listen to people's stories and reasons for leaving the church, there will likely be some things bubbling up that are worth affirming. Okay, Perhaps it's how they were treated by a pastor. That was really negative. You're going to want to. If they were mistreated, it's important to say that is mistreated, that's not right. Right, Perhaps it was an authoritarian dogmatism around belief or behavior. Wow, yeah, yeah, that's not how I, yeah, that's not what I would want you to experience. Perhaps it's how they fuse politics with Jesus. Many churches I know I mean going back to this guy I was talking to last week those were the two variables he named for their. They were raised in a home where everything was about you have to believe this and if you don't, you're bad news. And it was very fused with a certain partisan camp and now that they're no longer there, they feel rejected by that and it's like, wow, well, yeah, that is destructive, that's not healthy. So I had to affirm that, but go, but there are other ways of orienting, right, yeah?

Katie: 46:01

Yeah. So I guess the steps we've named so far is discerning someone's degree of openness. That's a really important point. Is this person a person of peace, as you described it, mac? And then, once you've done that, get curious about the why behind their de-churching and their story. The third step I would name is pay attention to God's activity in their life.

Katie: 46:25

So if you've been at Crosspoint for any length of time, you know that one of the things we believe is that God is always present and at work. He's always present and at work. It's something we talk about a lot, it's a key tenant of missional theology and it's an idea that's all over scripture. Philippians 2.13 says for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. John 5.17 says my father's always at work to this very day, and I too am working.

Katie: 46:52

I think these verses show us how God is actively working within individuals to shape their desire and actions to align with his mission and purposes, and he's just continually involved and he's present in our lives, working towards redemption, if we're open to it. So if we believe that, if that's our starting point, we believe that God is present and at work and that he created everybody. Right, like that's our starting point. Every person was created by God, so if God created everyone, he knows how to work in their life and extend invitations to them. So rather than us trying to force something or working overtime to convince them of something, maybe it's worth taking a step back and just trying to pay attention to where God is at work instead. Maybe there's a major life transition that they're grappling with, or maybe something is happening in their think. It's really important that we have that lens. God created this person. He loves them. He's at work. Where is he at work in their life?

Mac: 48:05

This is a game changer to go. Okay, I'm going to discern if this is a person of peace. If they're open to me, I'm going to get curious about their story and I'm going to be present long enough to be able to discern what God is doing, to become a divine detective. What is God doing in this person's life? Because God's been active throughout the duration of their life. I'm just showing up now, so my job is to join the work God is doing, because that's what's going to be most effective and I'll just say this takes the pressure off. When I first experienced, like here's how to do evangelism, it was all about me acting upon someone else to get them to a predetermined place, and I took it seriously. Like you guys, my senior year of high school, I was voted most likely to be a televangelist.

Mac: 48:52

Oh gosh Okay, so I'm not assuming anybody from high school is listening to this but if you did, I want to publicly apologize. I was like an evangelistic bulldozer. I thought it was my job and part of it was rooted in over-responsibility to get everybody saved.

Katie: 49:09

Yeah.

Mac: 49:09

Yeah, and it turned me into this crazy person that would force conversations and sort of apply pressure in ways that were so counterproductive. And I'm not saying that we don't have a role to play, I'm saying it's a participatory one and it really takes the pressure off. My approach with people has drastically changed, as I just realized. I get to be present to you and I'm trying to have my antenna up to what is God doing? Where is God at work in this person's life? And then, if I notice it, I talk about it with them and that just takes the pressure off, you know.

Katie: 49:44

It does. Yeah, I kind of grew up thinking the same way, Like I kind of had to have my stump speech so to speak. Is that a reference you guys understand In politics, like a politician does a stump speech Okay. Sometimes a stump speech Okay.

Mac: 49:54

Sometimes I say things and you guys look at me like what are you talking about?

Katie: 49:57

I know what a stump speech is Thanks, katie, but I think I had a different response than you, mac.

Mac: 50:03

I think because it felt so or a sales pitch might be another way to put it Sure.

Katie: 50:06

Yep, yep, that's a good one, but because it felt awkward to me. So I think there were a lot of times when I just didn't do it. It was like, yeah, that feels really weird, and so I'm just not going to do that.

Mac: 50:19

And then did you feel guilty afterwards Because you're like oh, I didn't do what I was supposed to do. Yeah, probably A good Christian would do.

Katie: 50:23

Yeah, I'm not a good Christian, yep, yep, yeah, yeah. And like I remember in college there like a bad Christian for not wanting to go on that trip. But then, once I started to learn this, it was a major light bulb moment for me. It was like it felt like, oh, I can do that.

Mac: 50:49

Yeah, I find that the best place to do evangelism is on a beach, wearing a bathing suit, using a tract. I'm just saying that's been the most effective experience.

Josiah: 51:05

Depends on the outfit. Yeah, you just have to accept, and I have to accept this often as a parent, and I have to accept this often as a parent, as a leader within an organization, as someone who cares about the people around me is I am not the primary agent of change in other people's lives, and I have to accept that and I can experience more peace as I accept that further, because my role is, as you're saying, discerning what God is up to. And how often do we get ahead of what God might be doing or completely miss what God is doing in someone else's life because we're convinced we know what's best for them?

Mac: 51:54

Yep, we assume too much responsibility and we assume we know more than we actually do. So let's say hey, let's say you're okay, this person's open to me. Um, they're, they're open to me and I've I've formed a relationship. I've gotten curious. There's safety there and I noticed God doing something in their life. I think I noticed God at work in their life in some way. Then what, what do you do?

Josiah: 52:19

Yeah, well then you just, you simply just invite them to say yes to what God is doing, and that can look different depending on the situation. I mentioned this couple earlier that I became friends with over the summer and there was a moment we were sitting down and they were on either side of me having this sort of argument about church and about God and about what they should do, and it became very clear what God was doing in them and it was very easy to name like hey, my encouragement to you guys is like I think you guys just need to, like, try a church and go, because it seems like it's what you want, but nothing has met your standards.

Josiah: 53:09

So the challenge for them was just like pick one and go See what happens, yeah, right. So the point is it's not going to look like that. As much as we want it to be a track that you hand out on a beach with a three-step plan to get someone back to church. It's not going to be that and you're going to have to do the work of discerning what God is doing and be willing to challenge, or maybe it's just invite more interrelationship to continue the conversation. But tilting the table back to them to say yes to what God is doing is important.

Mac: 53:47

Yeah, and maybe what I would say is to give an imagination of what that can sound like. Sometimes I use the word submit hey, can I submit something to you? Or hey, I think I might be noticing something. God seems to be doing this. What do you think about that? So it's not like, hey, a declaration. I guess what I'm getting at is I'm not declaring here's what God's doing in your life. It's more of a hey, I think I might be up to something here. This is what I'm noticing. What do you think about that?

Mac: 54:18

So even the way you're inviting them to notice is different. Right, so put it all together, okay, like, put these components together, because it really will equip you in your relationships both with people who don't know or follow Jesus or those who have de-churched, identify or discern. Are they open to me? Are they a person of peace? Go where the grace is right.

Mac: 54:41

If you're channeling lots of energy or putting a lot of time into someone who is, you're pursuing someone who's walking away from you. That's going to be counterproductive, okay. Step two if this person is open to you, get curious, ask questions, learn their story and so on, and then become a divine detective. While you're getting curious. You're not just listening to their story, you're also trying to pay attention to what God's doing in their life, and if you notice something, you submit it to them and invite them to submit to it as well. Does that make sense? Yeah, this is the roadmap that I use when I'm engaging people, both who I far from I sense are far from Jesus or don't follow Jesus, as well as those who have walked away from the church.

Josiah: 55:22

Are they?

Mac: 55:22

open to me. Am I orienting with a posture of kindness and gentleness and curiosity, and what do I notice God doing in their life, and can I name that with them and invite them to respond to it?

Katie: 55:35

Yeah, two, I guess two things that stick out to me as we're talking that, two things that I would say maybe are required to do this well, are both courage and humility. Right, like it takes some courage to approach people and, um, get curious and ask questions and even to put those test spoons out there. I know for me sometimes that can really require courage If it's someone who I feel like it'd just be easier to just talk about the weather or whatever, but I feel like God might be doing something here and he wants me to go there, but yet it also acquires some humility knowing that we don't necessarily have the right thing to say.

Katie: 56:11

To get them over the finish line.

Mac: 56:13

Maybe what this is coming to me in the moment, so I'm just going to name it, but I think it could potentially equip some of our listeners. The other thing I might do when it comes to discerning what God's doing and inviting them to respond is oftentimes people are sitting on like really bad news about God, about themselves, about life or something, and so one of the ways I often will orient to that is just name it. Hey man, it sounds like you're believing this about God, or your life, or yourself, or your circumstances or whatever, and that's.

Mac: 56:46

I think I'd feel the same way if I believe that too. But I want to just declare that, as I know Jesus and that is not Jesus's heart towards you. So I'm sort of like taking their bad news and like summarizing it for them and then sort of pivoting and going. But I think this is declaring this is the heart of God or the heart of Jesus towards you in a way that, like oftentimes, prompts more questions or seeking or openness.

Josiah: 57:12

Yeah, yeah. You'd be surprised at how those conversations can turn to when someone names like this leader messed up or this church member did this and just name like yeah, I don't think God liked that. I don't think God liked it either. Yeah, that that person did that to you Right Just helps shift. It draws attention to the fact that, like I think there's an internal, there's something internal that was like blaming God for this, and like God's just as upset about it as you are.

Mac: 57:41

Yeah, all right. Well, you guys, it is practice time. You know we try to end every episode with getting really practical. Came across this quote recently by a guy named James Cone Theological concepts have meaning only as they are translated into theological praxis, that is, the church living in the world on the basis of what it proclaims. So we want to end every episode going okay, we've talked about a whole lot, but what can we do to actually embody our faith together? What would you guys say?

Katie: 58:12

Yeah, I think it starts with prayer. No surprise. I think it's really important to just pray and discern what God is up to in the lives of people around you, like asking the Holy Spirit to bring people to mind. God might have someone in mind that he wants you to connect with that you haven't even considered One thing. In our year-long leadership intensives, one exercise that we have everyone do is to go on a prayer walk around the neighborhood and before they do that, we ask them to make a map of the houses that live in your neighborhood close to you and put everyone by name in those little houses and then walk around and just pray for them by name as you walk. And I remember doing that exercise for the first time and it was really impactful and meaningful for me and it just helped me bring like a new level of intentionality and awareness to how God might be working in the lives of those around me. So, yeah, just ask God for eyes to help you notice who those people of peace are.

Mac: 59:11

Yeah, I've had some weird scenarios with this not to scare our listeners scenarios with this, not to scare our listeners but I've gotten into the habit of, at the end of maybe spending time with Jesus, just creating some open space to listen and say, Jesus, is there anybody you want me to pray for or be intentional with? And sometimes really random people will come to mind. I remember a few years ago someone came to mind that I went to grad school with that I hadn't talked to in like years and I just felt this strong impression to reach out and it felt awkward. So I texted I'm like, hey, I know it's been probably like 10, 15 years since we've talked, but I was just praying and you came to mind hope you're doing well. Responds right away. This is a godsend. I have been consumed with alcohol.

Katie: 1:00:02

Nobody knows about it.

Mac: 1:00:07

Can we talk? So it's just to say and I've had a number of those where it's just like, oh, all of a sudden this person is coming to mind and it really like, feels like in a way outside of me, and then I'll reach out and it's like, oh, I literally am on my way to the hospital with this thing. Thank you so much. Will you pray with me? Like just stuff like that.

Katie: 1:00:22

That happened to me last night actually.

Mac: 1:00:23

It happened last night, yeah.

Katie: 1:00:24

Someone came to mind and I just texted them saying, hey, you're in my mind, Like I'm just praying for you.

Mac: 1:00:38

And she said, hey, thanks, today and it's the first anniversary of her death and, wow, we're having a hard time with it.

Josiah: 1:00:41

Yeah, so it's just to say when you say pray, pray like ask god to help you identify people that you're supposed to invest in, yeah, yeah, um, practice two, practice practice number two would just be, then, authentically engaged with those people around you, like, be willing to build genuine relationships without any end in mind. Just move towards people who are clearly open to you and, you know, keep your antennas up for what the Holy Spirit is up to, like we were already saying praying and discerning, you know, and practice naming some of that grace and truth that we were talking about, like being willing to point out when there's you know, when there's like a belief about God that we would call bad news, Like practice being willing to do that and you know, sort of just like stay in the game, I guess.

Mac: 1:01:41

I think my third, the third practice, one that I would share, is kind of heavy hitting, but it maybe encapsulates this entire series and why we're even having to deal with this. So I'll just name the practice Lean into the rhythms of your church community, like actually follow the way of Jesus with and alongside other people. Okay, one of the big things or themes I'm hearing from people of D church is that the church isn't doing what it says it's all about. Yeah, it's all about. It's about following Jesus, but the church I experienced doesn't look or sound or feel anything like Jesus. Now, in fairness, no church will ever arrive. We're all works and so there is a sense of like well, that's all of us, and I'm not using that as an, but we also ought to not use that as an excuse.

Mac: 1:02:37

But I think there's more transformation that we can experience in the church. I think God wants more for us, and so the best thing you can do for the people around you is to actually live a compelling life as a follower of Jesus. If you want people to follow Jesus, then show them what it looks like in community connected to a church. Put your money where your mouth is. Invest in a community. Live out the five tenets of community we talked about in our last episode. Live out the way of Jesus in a way that's compelling. That is the best apologetic, so to speak, that we can give people who have de-churched. They're missing out on something that they see being lived out in a unique way.

Josiah: 1:03:20

Yeah, yeah, Ideally you're inviting someone into the rhythms you already do so you're not telling someone you better go to church, right, right, it's. Come along with me, like I love being here. This is what I do. How much easier that is to invite someone to church when you're invested in it than you know guilting a family member to go back to church when they haven't been there in a while.

Mac: 1:03:45

Yeah, much different. I was in a conversation. This is what gives you credibility. I was in a conversation recently where they were narrating some hurt and pain they experienced in the church that caused them to walk away, and I said, hey, um, I've experienced some hurt and pain in the church too.

Mac: 1:04:02

And they looked at me and they know my story and they're like, wow, you've actually experienced like a mountain, more than I have, and that's changed, like it changed the dynamic in the conversation, cause they're talking to someone who is like living it out, right, um, so that's what I'm getting at is like they need to see the authenticity of your faith and followership of Jesus.

Katie: 1:04:22

Well, this has been a really good conversation. Maybe to summarize what we've said, I think, when it comes to the people in our lives who have de-churched, we wanna engage them in a Jesus looking way. We don't wanna write them off, but we also don't wanna come at them in like overbearing or unhelpful ways. We want to engage them with openness and curiosity, paying attention to where God is already at work in their lives, and we want to always be ready to extend an invitation for them to step into God's activity, whether that be in church or in another area of life.

Mac: 1:04:51

Yeah. So thanks for joining us today. I want to tell you where we're headed next. This kind of closes out this series. So we're about to head into Christmas and New Year's and then, after the new year, we're going to pick back up and we're going to do a series on forgiveness and maybe just to set up briefly the tension, I'll just say, is this pretty much everyone that I know agrees that forgiveness is at the heart of the gospel, and yet everybody struggles with it forgiving other people and so we want to take a step into that tension and outline some mechanics for forgiveness and what gets in the way of it. So that's where we're headed and we hope you'll tune in.

Josiah: 1:05:35

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.

‍