Defining Boundaries

‍Katie: 1:38

It's cold outside, it's really cold, and I was thinking, as I got my hat and my long parka on this morning, that in two days I will be on a plane heading to Florida, and I'm really excited about that. It's been a long time since we've been on vacation as a family. It'll be my kids' first time flying, which is kind of cute. So they have all these questions about like what's an airplane like and can you eat on the airplane, and is it like a school bus to the FC belts, so I'm just really looking forward to it. And on top of that, because I love like a good beach vacation I know everyone's got their own like personal preference of what type of vacation you would like to do, but if I can just sit at a pool or by the beach and read a book, I'm a happy camper.

Mac: 2:25

I am genuinely excited for you and your family. I think it's going to be great for you guys to get away and soak up the sun. Be together, Take a break from work. It's going to be great.

Katie: 2:37

Yeah, if you could just tell my kids to be perfect little angels, that would be great.

Mac: 2:42

Well, this is the difference between like a vacation and a trip.

Josiah: 2:47

You know big difference.

Mac: 2:50

Yeah. So I would say that this is probably, if I had to guess, it's probably going to be a little bit of both. It's going to be like a trip Cation when you have your kids. It's going to feel like work at times, but then it's also going to be like totally refreshing these that's been my experience in traveling with kids.

Katie: 3:08

Yeah, that's probably true. So back, I know you guys do you tend to do more adventurous vacations like trips and stuff, or enjoy like a good beach vacation.

Mac: 3:17

Oh yeah, well, we are my family. I grew up going to Sanibel Island in Florida as a kid, and that's kind of continued. So we go there frequently, like every couple of years. But Sanibel got hit by I think it was Hurricane Ian I don't remember the name, but I think it was Hurricane Ian like a few years ago and it like went right through the island, decimated everything, and so there's been a handful of years where it's kind of been our turn to go and we they're still rebuilding. So our hope is that they can regain their footing, that are coming along, but I mean it completely wiped out the island. So anyway, yeah, really sad.

Josiah: 4:01

I think I would be way more jealous of your beach vacation if this was like February and we had had a long winter and you're flying out of here. I kind of liked the cold weather at this time of year.

Mac: 4:13

I agree. When we get to February, that's when I start to get super cranky.

Josiah: 4:17

Yeah, it feels good now. There's like a chill in the air and it's, you know, that's kind of sunny and there's still some leaves on the trees. I think it's every time it snows from now until Christmas. You get excited.

Katie: 4:30

Yeah, I don't mind the snow, it just feels like whiplash with the temperature, man. It was like 80 a week ago and now it's 30. What is happening?

Mac: 4:40

Well, we're excited for you. Have a great time. He's excited for you.

Katie: 4:44

Thanks, talk to me in February, yeah.

Josiah: 4:47

All right.

Mac: 4:51

Well, let's dive in. We've been in the series on emotional maturity and how growing in emotional maturity is essential to our discipleship and man. We have covered in this series, you guys, just a massive amount of ground. It feels like I mean just looking back. We talked about the four components of EQ self-awareness, self-regulation, social awareness, relational management. Then we talked about where anxiety shows up in me, in others, between me and others and in a group of people. Then we talked about how it shows up fight, flight fun and we talked about triangles and over and under functioning. And in all of this, you guys, we've been at least doing our best. We've been attempting to show how Jesus navigated all this stuff and consistently embodied emotional and relational maturity. And the main through line here is that as disciples of Jesus, we're to become like Jesus, and so if we're going to be growing and becoming more like Jesus, we also need to be growing in our emotional and relational maturity. And I would just say for our listeners, if you're just tuning in, I encourage you, if this is like your first episode, go back and listen to this series, because there's a lot that we've unpacked. And I also will just say maybe you need to go back and review. I was working with a client for the leader's journey a couple of weeks ago and I'd given her one of our podcasts to listen to and this is like a high capacity leader and she was like man. I'm going to have to go back and listen to that episode because there was so much there. So I just encourage you, go back and review as needed, and especially as we get into today's episode, because we're really going to be bringing a lot of what we've talked about together and building off the themes we've already touched on. So where we're headed today is we want to talk about boundaries. We want to talk about the importance of implementing and maintaining boundaries within relationships, and so let's dive into this. What is a boundary? We talk about boundaries. What are we talking about?

Josiah: 7:02

Yeah. So I like to think about it as boundaries are one of the strategies we use to implement all the stuff we've been learning already. So you already kind of alluded to that Mac where we've learned all these things, where it shows up, how it shows up with anxiety, and boundaries are sort of like a practical tool in which we can execute all the stuff we've been learning and to implement it. So, simply put, boundaries are the limits and rules we set for ourselves within relationships. It's a limit that you put between you and another person. So I like to think of it as and I've heard this definition multiple places but it helps us to define where you end and where I begin. So think about it in terms of a land boundary. So if I knew where, if I had land, I would want to know where my yard ended and where someone else's begins. I think of it as in the same way, relationally, I need to know where what's mine and what's someone else's, and when those lines get blurred, that becomes not only a source of anxiety but also can help. It starts to erode our relationships and boundaries ultimately help us to protect things that are valuable. So if I am defining a boundary between me and someone else. It's there for not just my benefit but also theirs, and it protects the nature of our relationship in general. So they help bring clarity within relationships and allow for both parties to flourish in a healthy way.

Mac: 8:54

Okay, you've said a lot, so let me make sure I'm following. You're saying a boundary is sort of a space or a limit between me and another person, and I really like this metaphor you're drawing on, that it's sort of like a fence separating two properties. So here's my property, here's what belongs to me, and here's your property, and here's what belongs to you, right?

Josiah: 9:22

Yeah, and if we take that, I think, that analogy with the fence, you can even take it a step further to say, when a relationship isn't healthy, when there is lots of anxiety or maybe it's volatile in some way, that fence needs to be bolstered and made higher and maybe clearly defined. And when relationships are healthy, both people are very aware of that of the border and both people can flourish, kind of going in and out, knowing that this is yours, this is mine, and the fence doesn't need to be a 30-foot wall.

Katie: 10:00

Yeah, and I think one of the challenges is that properties and fences are very clear, like we can touch them. They're concrete, you can paint them and bolster them. Relationships- aren't as clear right, and so things get messy, and it can be easy to operate, maybe without healthy boundaries, without realizing it, and so that's one of the things I think we hope to dive into today is okay. Well, how do you put that fence in place when it's not as concrete?

Mac: 10:32

There's a great book called Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend, and here's a quote that I grabbed just as I was kind of reviewing for this podcast. They said boundaries define us. They define what is me and what is not me. A boundary shows where I end and someone else begins. So, josiah, you kind of nailed it, or I just committed plagiarism. Leading me to a sense of ownership and knowing what I am to own and take responsibility for gives me freedom. Taking responsibility for my life opens up many different options. Boundaries help us to keep the good in and the bad out, so not only like what I hear them saying is, not only gives me a sense of here's mine and here's what's yours, but then it also helps me take responsibility for what's mine and helps the other person take responsibility for what's theirs. Now here's as Katie was talking about, but they're not physical, right, and so that does make it tricky. Boundaries are the space or limits between me and another person, but there's all kinds of boundaries. Right, there's a physical boundary between, like, my property and your property, but in relationships it's not all that clear and there's different types of boundaries. So maybe let's flush this out for some of our listeners of like hey, what are the different types of boundaries that might be important to be aware of?

Josiah: 12:00

Yeah, Well, one I could name off the top is an emotional boundary. So this is simply just protecting I'm protecting my own emotional well-being and respecting the emotional well-being of others, being able to know my own limits and be able to name that for others really important, and this, if we're bringing in all these tools we've already learned self-awareness. This requires a high degree of self-awareness to know what I can handle and what I can't. I think of an example of this is going through a hard season of my own life. I had other people who wanted to lean on me for support and I had to be clear to name what I was able to provide for them and what I wasn't, simply stating that, hey, I'm doing my best to show up for you, but I'm also gonna be honest with you when I did something I can't handle. I remember having a conversation where saying like, hey, feel free to reach out if you need something and help. If I don't respond right away. I'm not ignoring you, just realize that, like, I'm probably gonna have to pick it up later because I'm dealing with enough of my own stuff. So that would be an example of an emotional boundary, of saying I'm happy to help, but if I don't respond right away, it's because I'm making sure that I'm in a good space to be able to do that.

Mac: 13:21

Yeah, someone might be reaching out to you to help with their yard and you're hey man, yeah, I'm your neighbor, I'm willing to come in and help as needed, but, like today, I've got a lot of stuff going on in my own house. Can't help today, yeah Right, yeah. The other thing I thought of is, just like, as a parent, we have a responsibility to protect our children too, and like, there's sometimes situations or environments that aren't healthy for them emotionally, and so what are, like, the environments or spaces you want to be thoughtful about with regard to your kids so they're not being exposed like emotional abuse or unhealthy dialogue or you know what I mean those types of things that would be another example of, like an emotional boundary.

Josiah: 14:03

Yeah, yeah, and it's really easy to I shouldn't say easy, but to me. When you learn this stuff, you start to realize there's a lot of teaching moments for your kids in that helping my daughter through. My oldest daughter is very relational. She's very demonstrative and quite dramatic, but she is the type of person that her friends lean on her for support. She has this girl that's much older than her on her bus that will always like dump her problems on her, and so he's named for me that, like. There are times when I just kind of want to sit by myself on the bus and not have to deal, and so this is a great teaching moment to say, hey, it is okay for you to name. Hey, today I need some space to myself. It doesn't mean I'm never gonna be there for you again, right, it's not. It's just saying, hey, today I need some space to myself, giving her lots of permission to name that you don't have to endure it just because she's going through a hard time. You're not the only thing. Like you are responsible for your yard, right, that's great.

Katie: 15:02

Yeah, that is a good teaching moment. Another one I would name would be physical boundaries. So this one kind of gets at the idea of protecting your physical safety and respecting that of other people. I think you know when I say physical boundary, there are the obvious examples that come to mind, like there's obviously forms of like physical touch that would be unwanted, typically like sexual in nature. Right, hopefully we all have like categories for that. But I'm also thinking about ways that physical boundaries can come into play that aren't that obvious. For example, when I was pregnant, three times in my life people like complete strangers would come up and rub my belly sometimes and it didn't bother me that much, but it was a little bit like how do you know I'm okay with this? Yeah, you know. Or even people that I like kind of knew but like okay, we're not on that level. Sometimes in a professional environment it was like, yeah, this doesn't really feel like I don't want this right now. I've heard people of color say that they have people touch their hair without asking quite a bit oh, you have such great hair and that can obviously be unwelcome. Touch Hugs. I think about this one with my kids. Sometimes there may be people that they don't know or don't know that well, that are like hey, give me a hug. And I've talked to them about saying like hey, if you don't want to give that person a hug, you can say, hey, let's do a high five instead. Like you can offer something else, you don't have to hug anyone or be touched in a way that you don't want to. And then with Charlie, my seven year old, just this week, you guys, there was an episode on the school bus on the way home from school, where some of his friends were kind of playing around but they did something to him that kind of violated his personal boundaries. His friends were holding him down so that another boy could pretend to kiss him, which you can think like, oh, they're just being goofy boys on a bus, like boys will be boys. But we had a really important conversation around like you have a right to your space and that made you uncomfortable and that violated your physical boundary and you have every right to say don't do that to me, I don't want to be touched in that way. So, yeah, that just felt like another teaching moment. Sounds like it, that's intense and physical boundaries.

Josiah: 17:17

Yeah, I think that it's good to help all of this conversation when it comes to boundaries and teaching kids at the same time. This helps. I think it helps kids be able to trust their instincts and their gut to be able to recognize red flags in relationships. You see people who they ignore red flags in relationships over and over as adults and they get themselves into trouble. Being in a very unhealthy relationship when maybe there's all of this conversation could really help in our parenting to help kids increase their ability to listen to when their body's telling them something's bad.

Katie: 17:54

Totally.

Josiah: 17:54

Something's off. Yeah.

Mac: 17:56

Yeah, another boundary that you might want to think through is time right. Protecting the use of time and respecting that of others would be another type of boundary. This is really challenging as a pastor. So I'm sure you guys can relate to this, but my typical week for me involves a lot of proactive energy, things that I'm responsible for doing, that I need space for, like sermon prep, for example. So there's this proactive part of my job description where I have tasks that I have to get done and they're on me to do, and then there's this reactive part of being a pastor, too, where I want to be available to people and sensitive to their needs and support of it, et cetera, and how those two work together can be really really tricky at times. Sometimes I get quite a few requests for people to get together or have a meeting, and that's I welcome that. I enjoy meeting with people and talking and so on, but there's always this tension of, like I want to be a supportive presence, I want to be available to people, but I've learned over the years that, like I may not even be the best person for them to talk to, like whatever they're going through, it might actually be someone else that would be better suited to help them or navigate whatever it is they're going through. And sometimes, if I'm not discerning, I can actually put myself behind in things that I'm responsible for, which then sort of like has a negative ripple effect of like now I'm stressed out or I have to stay late, and so now I'm not getting the time I normally would. In my kids you know what I mean. Like, if I'm not managing that space well, my own time well, it has an impact on me and other people that are counting on me. Does that make sense? Yeah for sure.

Katie: 19:46

Yeah, there are only 24 hours in a day. That is something I'm still coming to terms with. I would like to think that I could do all the things and help all the people. But you're right, Mac, when you don't recognize that on the front end, you end up kind of doing bad work for yourself and for other people around you. This is probably the hardest boundary for me to maintain Time. I'm being honest, the time boundary Cause, I'll look at my calendar and think, yeah, I don't have anything going on that day. I can do that. Yeah, I can do this. Yeah, I can do that. And before I know it, I've gotten no margin and I'm pretty exhausted.

Josiah: 20:16

Yeah, yeah, and that isn't to say you can't ever be flexible, right? We're not saying you can never be flexible. The idea is that I'm aware of what this is gonna cost. If I'm aware of the cost if I choose to step in and help this person, I'm aware that if I'm late that's gonna bleed into family time and all these things. And it doesn't mean you can. That could never happen, like absolutely not home by five. But being aware of it allows you to consciously make the decision out of love for someone else, knowing it's gonna cost you. The problem is when these things become compulsive. Yes, you're constantly saying I have to help this person because they're in my office. I have no choice. Well, we're naming that. There is a choice and you can define boundaries, and time is an important one to be aware of.

Mac: 21:04

That's right and I found, at least with people in our congregation when I name for them sometimes I'll invite that. I got a meeting a few weeks ago that was sort of towards the end of the day and I said, look, I need to be out of here by this time to be home for my family. And we're kind of nearing that time and this person looked up the clock and said thank you so much for meeting. I want you to go home to your family. Maybe not everybody would do that, but I found like that is not wildly uncommon when you name like here's why people are generally supportive of that, because their eye sense this community is for you and your family, you know yeah.

Josiah: 21:37

Yeah, when you walk in with that assumption, you are also assuming that if you name that, it doesn't mean you couldn't have the conversation another time, that's right. Yeah, another one we could name is conversational boundaries, sort of just naming what you will and won't talk about with someone. I've found this one to be incredibly helpful in relationships and it's not something I've always been very good at but just being able to set limits to either this isn't a good time to talk about this, I'm not in a good space to be able to handle this, let's pick this up another time. Or it could be a boundary to just say I'm really at like at this moment. I'm indefinitely unwilling to talk about this subject with you. This could be because the conversation topic is a little volatile. Maybe you're like you're not ready for that, like this is gonna be a big thing. I don't have time to really unpack this, so let's pick this up another time. It could be. The conversation is gonna require both people to be in a good space, so let's make sure we have enough awareness and that the kids aren't around all these other factors. It also could be an element of understanding if this conversation is appropriate or not to have with this person in private. We have principles on our staff about things that we can have conversations about. There's certain conversation topics that can, I think, produce intimacy between people in some capacity and being aware of those super helpful because, again, boundaries are about protecting something valuable. You see this relationship and the nature of this relationship. I don't want to change that into something that could produce harm.

Mac: 23:26

Yeah, like, for instance, katie and I work very closely together as part of our executive team, on our staff, and we have conversational boundaries in place. At no point will I ever bring Katie into a challenge that, like Josie and I, might be experiencing or navigating in our marriage, or vice versa because, that's inappropriate and can produce the intimacy that you're talking about. And those boundaries again, we've said boundaries are for for health and flourishing. That allows us to focus on, like the things we're actually supposed to be focusing on.

Josiah: 24:00

Right, yeah, and if Katie needed support in her marriage, there are other people she can go to for that.

Mac: 24:05

Yes.

Josiah: 24:05

Yes, so you're not just throwing her to the wolves, being like, well, it doesn't matter, because this would cross a boundary.

Katie: 24:11

Right, you're on your own, yeah. Or another thing that comes to mind is like, if it's like Thanksgiving dinner and you're tempted to weigh into, like the latest hottest political issue, but you know it's gonna produce a brawl, maybe time for a conversational boundary, right?

Mac: 24:27

Yeah, yep, that hits close to home, okay.

Katie: 24:31

Sorry, I triggered you. Yeah, I remember a few.

Mac: 24:34

This was maybe a couple of years ago someone in our family I won't name names. We're sitting around the table for Thanksgiving and the question was what do you think of Anthony Fauci?

Katie: 24:43

And I was just like why?

Mac: 24:44

Why would you do that?

Katie: 24:45

Great conversation starter for Thanksgiving dinner. Like let's not do that.

Josiah: 24:49

Yeah, I think that another way that this can play out is some of these conversational boundaries may be temporary. I think it's worth naming. Maybe there's a topic that is difficult to talk to with someone and you care about your relationship with this person and you know you're not in a good space to be able to talk about it. This also, you know, starts to integrate into triangles in the sense that, like, I know that, like this topic with this person is going to create a triangle that I don't want to be in right now, or at least I don't want to engage with. So for now, let's just we're not gonna talk about anything to do with this. And when I have experienced that, when you name that, I've definitely had some wins, yeah totally.

Mac: 25:35

It's helped. Here's where I get stuck with this one. The conversational boundary is. I can think of easily upwards of 50 examples where I've had someone in my office that's not happy and they're not showing up in a productive space, like the way that they're orienting to the conversation is full of aggression, or they're not willing to listen, or like lean in charitably, and over and over and over again. I think that as long as they're in my office and we keep talking, I might be able to like reach a resolution, and so what I've been learning and it's taken a lot of therapy is to notice that earlier on and have some different tools on hand to put those boundaries in place so that they don't continue in a fruitless conversation and end up absorbing stuff that I probably shouldn't because this person isn't showing up charitably. Let me give just one more type of boundary, and that's an internal boundary. This is where you set limits on how much you might give to thinking about something or feeling about something. So okay, if you're anything like me, there are times when, like I could ruminate on something that happened for a long period of time, like play it over in my mind again and again and again, or maybe go to projection, where I'm anticipating something in the future and I continue to think about it again and again, and there's a time and place to reflect on the past and there's a time to anticipate the future. But there's also this space we can get into where it's really unhelpful. We're just kind of going around in circles and getting more anxious and worried, and so an internal boundary might be something like okay, I'm gonna give myself five minutes to reflect on this past thing or to think about how this might play out in the future, and then I'm gonna be done and I'm gonna move on. That'd be like an internal boundary.

Josiah: 27:30

Yeah, yeah, that's helpful for sure.

Katie: 27:33

Yeah, sometimes I try to tell my brain that at like three in the morning when I wake up ruminating and it doesn't listen, dang it.

Mac: 27:39

It is hard and sometimes like yeah, when you're laying in bed, either because you woke up or trying to fall asleep, it's like all the things that you haven't been able to do like catalog or sift through or make sense of during the day can just kind of bombard you. And what does it look like to grow in our capacity to have those internal boundaries and learn to like resting?

Josiah: 27:58

God's care, yeah, I think the internal boundaries are probably the least definable. They're like the hardest ones to practically name, like you named. Hey, I'm only willing to give it this amount of time. That's very difficult, right when you're ruminating or stuck in a pattern, but they're really important. I think this comes back to all of this work of emotional intelligence. It begins in yourself.

Mac: 28:31

Let me give you an example. You guys know this maybe some of our listeners don't, but I've had some like vocal issues over the last few years. I have one vocal chord that does not work the way it's supposed to work, and when I have to talk a lot or project loudly, it like ruins. My voice becomes super painful and when this was kind of at its peak of like what's going on? I don't know what's happening. I was super anxious about it. I mean, and it got to the point where, like Josie and I had an agreement Like I needed space to process, but I couldn't process it all the time. So we just set up this thing where it was like, okay, if I need to talk about it, I could request like a check-in hey, can I have a check-in with you? And she could say yes or no. And it was awesome because it put like this boundary around this massive thing that was happening in my life and allowed us to attend to it, but not attend to it all the time. It was super good.

Josiah: 29:28

Yeah, that sounds really helpful. I think another way maybe would be if you're ruminating on something and you've got kids to take care of, you've got family stuff, you've got other things that you're trying to focus on is like go for a walk and say, when I come back from the walk, I'm dropping the issue and I'm focusing on other stuff. So like just setting some sort of clearly definable process in which this is how much I'm giving it and then I'm done.

Katie: 29:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all good ideas. So lots of different types of boundaries and flushing out what a boundary is. It also might be worth addressing some possible misconceptions around boundaries. Do you guys have any ideas of what maybe some myths or like misunderstandings would be? What would you say, here is what a boundary is not.

Josiah: 30:17

Yeah, well, I think one myth to name that I sometimes do feel tension with, if I'm honest, is that having boundaries means that I'm being selfish. And if I'm loving others and preferring their needs over my own, as scripture would dictate, love in the way of Jesus looks like. Setting boundaries then means I'm being self-centered and I'm not loving people. I sometimes feel tension with that, but I think some of the answers would be some of the same things we've named previously in the series is that a lack of awareness isn't love, so it's not loving to be negligent of reality. So if you can't clearly name reality, it's gonna be difficult to know what it looks like to love someone. And loving someone also does not mean hating yourself Like we love others, as if we don't even know what it looks like to be a whole, complete person ourselves. how are we supposed to encourage that flourishing in other people? Yeah, yeah, so okay.

Mac: 31:27

So I hear you saying look one, maybe misconception about boundaries is that they're selfish and maybe the response of that is no healthy boundaries promote healthy relationships.

Josiah: 31:40

Yeah, yeah. I see this relationship as something valuable and I don't want it to degrade or turn into something that would be harmful or unhealthy for either of us. So these boundaries are for both of us to be able to continue flourishing and for longevity.

Mac: 31:58

Right. So it's not just about me, it's also for you, right?

Josiah: 32:03

Yeah, and if you can't name where you end and someone else begins, right, how am I supposed to even discern what it looks like to step into your life in love? I don't even know what would be loving for me. How am I supposed to know what would be loving for someone else? Yep.

Katie: 32:24

Yeah, I think what you're saying reveals to me how conditioned we are to niceness, especially women and young girls. Like, as I'm sitting here thinking about this, I'm just I'm thinking about all of the subtle messages I received growing up, especially in the church world, about how important it is for girls to be kind of everything to everyone, to be really accommodating. I think we're encouraged to prioritize the needs of others above our own. We're supposed to be nurturing, polite, don't be overly emotional, don't be bossy, right? Setting a boundary can feel counter to a lot of the ways that to some extent, everybody but I think more so females to be all of those things. And when you do set a boundary, I mean I'll be honest, you guys, I feel like when I got into adulthood I didn't have a lot of good categories in my brain or examples of females that really set clear boundaries that I could look to and go like oh yeah, that's what it sounds like. All the examples I had for the most part were of women kind of being more passive, accommodating, and those women were propped up and held in high regard as loving, and then maybe some people who did have good boundaries were almost like too aggressive. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.

Mac: 33:37

We've been inculturated, and I hear you saying maybe particularly women have been inculturated into a boundaryless way of life in the name of kindness and be nice. Yes yeah, sheesh.

Katie: 33:49

Yeah.

Josiah: 33:50

Yeah, do you feel like you, especially being younger, like really didn't have permission to name boundaries?

Katie: 33:57

Yes, absolutely, Mm-hmm, absolutely it wasn't well. I have a mom that modeled some good, strong boundaries. That was helpful in a lot of ways. Also, like just doing my own work, like Brene Brown is really helpful. I think Brene Brown has a really helpful voice and like here's what it sounds like to set a boundary in a way that's not kind of sending or rude or overly aggressive. People may sometimes think that you're being rude or bossy. Okay, we can't prevent against that. Honestly, a lot of times that's because it just sounds different.

Josiah: 34:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew of someone who. She was a woman and was continually there were older men in her life that continually pushed boundaries and made her feel uncomfortable. She clearly did not feel permission to say hey, I don't want you to like, I don't want you to do that Like older men walking up to her and like just kissing her because they felt like they could. What? Yeah?

Katie: 34:58

Oh yeah, that's what happened to me, yeah.

Josiah: 35:01

Yeah, they just walk up, walk right up, say whatever they want.

Mac: 35:04

Yeah.

Josiah: 35:05

The overly complimentary like lingering hugs, all those kinds of things, and I could probably name half a dozen stories of people who have experienced these things and none of them felt in the moment any permission to say, hey, I'm uncomfortable with that.

Katie: 35:24

Yeah.

Josiah: 35:25

None of them.

Katie: 35:26

Yeah, I remember working at a coffee shop and older guy taking the tips and putting it in my back pocket.

Mac: 35:32

And then oh my gosh.

Katie: 35:33

Yeah, and you guys? I'm telling you exact same thing. It did not even occur to me at the time to say that's not okay. Yeah, why didn't it occur to me? I don't know, maybe it should have.

Mac: 35:43

Right, which maybe just reveals this not only the inculturation of boundaryless living, but also that, like, I can't implement a boundary unless I know what that boundary should be and can articulate it. Yes, mm-hmm, yeah, Otherwise, when there's a boundary violation, it's like I feel like unable to know how to respond to that. Yes, this is why, again, like knowing how do I erect a fence in this moment, is the work? It is the work. Yeah, okay, you asked the question what are boundary, what aren't boundaries? Right, and I think, josiah, that's insightful, that it doesn't mean that I'm being selfish. Some people think that having a boundary is selfish, but maybe to like extend that further. Another one I would name is that but having a boundary isn't an excuse for not engaging. Well, let's just be clear about that as well, because I do think there's a reputation that boundaries are selfish, because some people have used boundaries to be selfish. Yes, right, so if the first misunderstanding is that boundaries are selfish, the second one is just to explicitly name that they shouldn't be used to build out a selfish way of life. It's almost like the over-functioning, under-functioning thing we talked about last time. If you're coming in at 100% and your wife is like doing the dishes you know and you're sitting at 100%, not engaging, like that's selfish. You get what I'm saying, yep. So I would want to be explicit to say that boundaries aren't there so that you can justify your selfishness. If I have an afternoon open and someone asked to meet and I was just like I don't really want to, that's being selfish.

Josiah: 37:27

Yeah, and how much of our own growth do we limit because we're not willing to step into things that are uncomfortable? I could name it as a boundary to say I'm not comfortable with that. But if it's not harmful to me or to others in some way, pushing ourselves beyond our limits is where growth happens. Yes, so we can't throw it all out by saying, well, because I'm uncomfortable, that means I should set a boundary there. It takes discernment.

Mac: 37:58

Yeah, and I can pick at that with conversations hey, this is a really tricky topic that we're discussing, or man, we had this exchange and it didn't go well. And man, it's really uncomfortable to be honest and step into that space, but that's exactly what's needed. So to erect a boundary and go, oh, I'm uncomfortable with this, can actually prevent right relationship and maturity and growth, right?

Josiah: 38:22

Yeah, if you're, it's about intentionality. If I am aware I'm self-aware, right I'm socially aware, All these things we've already talked about. If I'm aware of all those things, I'll know when I'm pushing past a boundary that was already there. I'll know when I'm walking into someone else's yard, and oftentimes loving people is going to involve saying they're not able to leave their yard to come ask for help, maybe someone who's like in a real rough spot. I'm not gonna walk past them simply because, well, it's five o'clock, right? It doesn't mean I can't do that, I'm just choosing to do it out of love. And that choice and that intentionality is what we're talking about, in the sense that when things become compulsive or things become defaults, that isn't a loving way to orient our lives. We do things intentionally and we're hyper aware of reality so that we can discern what love looks like in this instance and make choices.

Mac: 39:21

I do think a lot of the boundary problems are a lack of self-awareness. Okay. So one thing that comes to mind I don't know how you guys mow your grass. I don't, okay, yeah.

Katie: 39:32

I can see Alex just loving that space.

Mac: 39:34

Okay, typically, and maybe my Enneagram, one thing is coming out here where there's like a right way to mow your grass, but it seems to me that the vast majority of people, when they mow their lawn, they'll maybe go around the perimeter of their lawn a few times so that when they go back and forth and they make that turn, at the end they're like staying on their property, right? Okay, my neighbor does not do that. He doesn't go around the perimeter to like he just goes back and forth and does so very unevenly. So if our grass is long and now he's cutting it, it's like these zigzags all the way down our property line. And I look, I don't think he, I don't even think he's aware of it. But that's an example. Like, hey, if we're saying boundaries are like the property line, here's what's yours, here's what's mine, he keeps coming over into our yard and I don't even think he's aware of it.

Josiah: 40:27

Yeah.

Mac: 40:28

Yeah.

Josiah: 40:29

Yeah, and that if you take that analogy into real life, that looks like without the awareness and having the boundaries, you may actually be acting selfishly and you don't even know it. Yes, you may be taking something from someone else that really is theirs to own, and you could be doing it out of being completely unaware.

Mac: 40:47

Yeah, the default is over functioning. Yes, right.

Katie: 40:49

Yeah, all good points. I like the point, especially you made, josiah, about these being brooded in love and intentionality versus like guilt or obligation. Another misconception I would name is that having boundaries is controlling, I think, because setting and communicating boundaries requires some assertiveness. It could be perceived as controlling. I have in my mind, maybe like a relational dynamic where maybe there's some enmeshment or some codependency and these patterns have been entrenched for a long time and all of a sudden, one person says, hey, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Like you and I have been operating this way. Maybe you give the silent treatment and then I sort of like run after you and try to get you to talk, or one of us explodes in anger, like, whatever the pattern is, I'm not willing to do that anymore. And the other person could respond by going well, what gives you the right to do that? Like, who are you to change? Who are you to change this dynamic? Right, we always done things this way. It's hard to set boundaries, especially when patterns have been in place for a long time. But I think what I would say is having a boundary is really just controlling yourself. It's not controlling the other person. Healthy boundaries have eye statements. I'm noticing that when this happens, I react this way, and I'm not going to do that anymore.

Josiah: 42:08

I'm unwilling to do this.

Katie: 42:09

I'm unwilling to do this, or here's what I am going to do. So it's not about controlling other people, it's naming what I'm going to do and what I'm okay with.

Mac: 42:19

That's right. Having boundaries is mostly about defining self. You're clarifying who you are, your values and how you're willing to show up. But all these myths are there for a reason. They're myths because of the way they've been. Boundaries have been misused, and so you're saying and I think you're 100% right, katie that good boundaries are eye statements. They're clarifying what I am willing and not willing to do. The myth is there, though, because many people have erected boundaries by making you statements. You need to change this, you need to change that, and it is predominantly about controlling other people, and so I think that's just great that we're naming hey, boundaries aren't about controlling other people, it's about managing self. They're not just an excuse to be stubborn. Yeah, let's take this a step deeper, because and I really liked what you named, katie, earlier that like hey, yeah, the property line's really clear, there's a fence, there's documentation, et cetera. But that's easy, but when it's in a relationship, it gets a lot trickier to discern. So the question is how do you discern appropriate boundaries? And, again, I think the stuff we've covered in this series so far has helped. Josiah, you named triangles, if I'm aware of triangles, and someone else is experiencing relational tension and wants to invite me in an appropriate boundary might be, I'm not going to get involved. You need to go work that out between the two of you, right? Or let's say it's over and under function. We've talked about that as a symptom of anxiety. Knowing what I'm responsible for and what I'm not responsible for keeps me in my yard rather than going over to someone else's yard without invitation, right? So a lot of the things we've covered helps us discern what those boundaries are. But I'm curious from you to give us an example like maybe a story or an example where it was tricky to discern what boundaries might look like. So, for example, have you ever had that moment where someone just starts acting a little bit differently around you and you're not sure if it's? Did I do something wrong? Did I say something? And you start to think about it? They're acting just maybe a little distant, or maybe passive, aggressive. There just seems to be something off. Okay, if you're like me, I'm aware of that and want to fix it. I don't like that. I don't like when I sense distance between me and someone else, especially if it's like not talked about or named and the old me without boundaries would assume that, like I need to go into, like I need to kick into gear to figure out whatever is going on and solve it, rather than maybe like a built in assumption, like if someone else has a problem or is like that's their responsibility to communicate to me. Now that doesn't mean I might not take initiative to at least like invite hey, is there something going on? Or like something like a light sort of test balloon, is what I would call it like a light check in hey, is there something going on? Are we okay? And if they say no, then like I'm done, whereas like maybe a boundary list Mac 10 years ago would have kept kept ruminating on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whereas now I have clearer boundaries of like hey, if there's a relational problem, like, I certainly will check in because I care about right relationship, but it's your responsibility to name that so we can talk through it.

Katie: 45:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can think of examples multiple where I've done that exact same thing, In particular one friend that I remember having a heated conversation and after that I thought we're fine, but I could tell she was acting differently and the old me would have over-functioned to try to get things back to normal so that I didn't have to hold anxiety about her feeling better, acting differently. Right like hey, how can I fix this? Are you sure you're okay? Are you sure you're okay? Are you sure you're okay? But in this scenario, we did have a conversation and out of that conversation, you know, she named some frustrations that she had and I responded the best I could and then we left it with well, hey, let me know if you want to put a conversation on boundary in place and not talk about this thing that made you so frustrated in the future. So, yeah, I can definitely relate to what you're saying, mac, and I think that's shown up a lot in my life.

Mac: 46:46

Josiah, I can tell that you've got a story to share.

Josiah: 46:50

Yeah for sure. I have plenty of stories. Yeah, one of them was just from a past work relationship with yet an old dynamic that doesn't exist anymore for sure. But I had my supervisor had big plans for what they wanted to do, for things like Christmas, easter, stage sets, all those kinds of things, and those big plans required a lot of hours and when I first came onto the team I didn't quite know what I was getting into. And after a handful of, or after a few of those getting through a few of those busy seasons, I realized that I am like I'm never home. I'm working a lot, a lot of hours being gone, a lot of nights, and I just sort of assumed this was how it's supposed to be. Eventually you kind of hit a wall and you realize that I can't keep functioning like this. I'm either, and I remember coming to him and just saying listen, if I am a good employee to you and being here for you the way you want me to, I'm a bad dad, I'm bad in my home, and if I am taking enough time to be able to say protecting this time at home, then I feel like I'm a bad employee and I sort of just had that open dialogue. I think it went well enough, but the end result was not. We came together and collaborated. The end result was me saying was pre-empting one of these busy seasons and saying listen, this next week I'm willing to give you one late night this next week. Rather than how many, rather than as many as it takes, which could have been three or four, so I'm willing to give you one late night, and it's gonna be after I go home and eat supper. I will come back. Yeah, I, and otherwise I'm gonna leave at this time, and I just had to name it.

Mac: 48:50

Yeah.

Josiah: 48:51

Because I was just turning into I. It was basically ruining certain seasons for my whole family because I was gone all the time.

Mac: 48:59

Yeah, I think what's interesting too about that example is, I think sometimes we have this idea that when we set a boundary with someone else, they're gonna like see it and applaud us for it. And oh that sounds so good.

Josiah: 49:14

I'm glad you're doing that Sometimes, but not often.

Mac: 49:17

Right and this so this isn't. This is usually not the case when you define yourself. If, like, the quality of the boundary is depending on whether or not the other person agrees with it, rather than whether or not it's in line with your values, right? See how we can outsource so quickly. We can outsource whether it's a good boundary or a bad boundary based on how other people respond to it, rather than like rooting that boundary in our priorities and our values and who we're becoming as people.

Josiah: 49:49

Yeah, yeah. For sure and that's why I was always bad at these types of things is, if it was gonna cause strain in a relationship, if it was gonna be a really uncomfortable situation, if I knew it was gonna result in the other person disagreeing with me, those I would often just not even have them and I would skirt this line of, like you know, trying to navigate, communicating when I'm gonna be home, but knowing I'm probably not gonna be home at that time and you're trying to like keep the frame open so that like I'm not lying about it but I'm also not like being really honest, and then it would cause strain at home and then I would end up not staying as late. As you know, other people wanted me to.

Mac: 50:31

To pick your mess.

Josiah: 50:32

They're mad at me. So like it was just like a lose-lose yes, and so defining that you know, I don't know how, really how well it went, but it did allow me, it sort of like it gave me control of my own life back. Yes, I was just able to say okay, well, and it lowered anxiety because I'm I've clearly communicated, I'm gone at this time and I had to define that, by the way, healthy managers and supervisors.

Mac: 51:01

When an employee comes and says what do you want me to do? Here's where I'm stuck. They'll lean in, they'll listen with empathy, they'll encourage you to discern what the next right move is right. They won't get mad and upset and, you know, demand more from you.

Katie: 51:19

Yeah.

Mac: 51:20

So, anyway, let's talk about Jesus for a moment, shall we? Because Jesus didn't live a boundary-less life. Jesus operated with boundaries himself and respected the boundaries of others. And as I was thinking about this, this dynamic came to mind that I'd love to talk about with the two of you. And it's just this idea that Jesus allowed others to walk away from him. In other words, he respected the boundaries of other people, and there were times when Jesus walked away from other people. In other words, he operated with boundaries. Now, I've shared this before in other contexts, and I've received some pushback at this idea that Jesus walked away from people, to which my first response is well, what do you do with these examples where we see this clearly in the scriptures? But I want to. It's led to this insight that there's a difference between walking away from someone and giving up on someone. So I never you don't see Jesus giving up on people, but you do see him walking away, putting a temporary boundary in place. So let's flesh this out, and I'm just interact with me here. It seems as though Jesus allowed others to walk away from him. The rich young ruler we've talked about in previous episodes, at the end of Luke nine, there's like this example, three in a row of him calibrating the cost of discipleship. And you see these excuses like oh, first let me go and bury my father. Or hey, I need to say goodbye to my family. And in each example it's like oh, there seems to be this indication that this person wasn't willing to give that up in order to follow Jesus. And Jesus, like, respected that. And John six, he has this hard teaching around like, hey, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you cannot be my disciple. And we're told the crowds begin to walk away and even turns to his disciples like are you gonna abandon me too? Right, but we see Jesus respecting those boundaries of people who aren't willing to follow him and turn and go in a different direction. He doesn't try to coerce or manipulate or control them in any way. And then there's other times when Jesus walks away from people. So, for instance, in Mark one, the crowds are looking for him and he's like no, I'm gonna do this in other places as well. I'm saying no to this crowd in order to keep moving on. There were times when he did a miracle and an entire town of people were so scared they asked him to leave and Jesus ends up leaving. There were other times when Jesus walked away from the religious leaders because they were trying to trap him or threaten his life. So there's numerous examples of Jesus walking away from people when they were going to mistreat him. Even after his inaugural speech in Nazareth, where he reads from Isaiah, they wanna throw him off a cliff and he makes his way through the crowd and leaves. So I'm just curious what that kind of provokes for you guys around, this idea that Jesus was willing to walk away from people and allowed other people to walk away from him.

Katie: 54:21

Yeah, it's a really interesting and important distinction between walking away and giving up on people. I think one important characteristic that comes to mind for me is that there was always an invitation he never withdrew his invitation for them to follow him, but yeah, it's saying he never gave up on people. So even with the Pharisees and the religious leaders, like he may have walked away, but there was always an open door for them to continue to, for them to actually be open and receptive to his teachings and to start to follow him At any point. If anyone would have come to him and said and like repented of things that they had done wrong or you know what Jesus, like I do wanna follow you, I don't see him like rescinding an invitation to do so. Does that make sense?

Mac: 55:09

It does. This has informed how I've oriented to people who leave our church for various reasons, you know, but especially in post-COVID there's been a lot of movement and this isn't just here but it's churches across the United States. Attendance patterns have shifted quite a bit and people found new communities. And when people leave our church, that is very much and it's rooted in what I see Jesus doing. When someone leaves, I try to have mature dialogue, honest dialogue about what's motivating them, and not Like let's talk about it. And if they choose to leave, I often tell them like hey, and the door is always open should you want to return.

Katie: 55:50

Yeah.

Josiah: 55:51

I think the why is the most important part. What I hear you two naming is that Jesus, if he did walk away, it wasn't for it wasn't because he was offended and couldn't figure out how to press into relationship with people, it wasn't because he had a squabble with someone and didn't wanna press into a hard conversation. I think you're naming that. His why was always well, of course I'm here, but I'm also not going to own what's yours. Yes, and that's different to me than what some people's come when some people walk away from relationships and I'll include myself in that you walk away from relationships because often it's because you're avoiding hurt and pain. You're avoiding dealing with the reality of what happened. You're avoiding a hard conversation that you could be willing to press into, and I think it's important to name the why as to why you would create distance between you and someone else and often try to find a way to name that for them when you do that.

Mac: 57:08

Yeah, I mean. One final note here is that it wasn't Jesus operated with boundaries, but he also taught his disciples to operate with boundaries. So one example comes to mind for me, which is in Luke 10, when Jesus sends out the 72. Okay, and there's kind of these instructions he gives to them. When you enter a house, first say peace to this house, shalom to this home, and if someone who welcomes you and reciprocates peace, stay there. If not, like move on, shake the dust. And that's an example to me of like, yeah, you're not to take responsibility for someone else's response, but you're also gonna do like this grand gesture at the end to let them know that this is kind of on you. Like, shaking the dust was this prophetic sort of it was like this prophetic symbol of like hard-heartedness that you're leaving them to think about, which kind of goes to your point, katie, like when Jesus did allow people to walk, he always left them with like a pressing discipleship question or challenge that was honestly designed to haunt them at night.

Katie: 58:13

Yeah, yeah, that's funny, mac. I literally was about to share the exact same example. Because what comes to mind for me is like Jesus sitting around the table with the 72 and them saying we can't do this. Like what are you talking about? You're gonna send us out there like sheep among wolves, like there's no way we can do this. And Jesus was not afraid to say no, I'm not going to do this for you, this is mine and that's yours, and I'm sending you out. And so not only did he define a boundary between himself and his disciples, what was his and what was? theirs, but then he also helped them name boundaries for other people, and if other people aren't receptive to you, then you set a boundary.

Mac: 58:52

Yes, and in the instructions he also says like you're gonna proclaim the kingdom and you're gonna heal the sick. You're gonna demonstrate the kingdom. That's your responsibility. It's to proclaim and demonstrate the kingdom. And their responses up to them. Very clear, like if you want a fence, that's the fence, here's what you're gonna do, and their response is up to them. And when they respond this way, this is the line, this is what you're going to do.

Josiah: 59:19

We really get into a lot of trouble as church leadership, don't we, when we start to own how people respond.

Mac: 59:28

Oh my goodness, this is probably an entirely different perhaps series on evangelism. And because I was discipled into an evangelism that was rooted in fear and anxiety and taking responsibility for other people's salvation, and all this fear and anxiety about other people's eternal destiny and how I present that to them. And if they don't respond, here's what you do. You gotta keep pressing. It was. There's so much there to unpack.

Josiah: 59:59

Yeah, how many decisions can be made, or the decisions we make within leadership of church, for the things we're gonna do, based upon trying to get a certain response. And if there isn't that response, then it's like, well, maybe we're doing something wrong.

Mac: 1:00:15

Yep, and yeah, tricky Lot lot time packed there, so let's shift here. How can someone practice this? Yeah?

Josiah: 1:00:25

well. First practice would just be to define yourself within certain relationships, so it's important to note that this can be done on your own or with help Like, if you need help discerning some of these things, but start with identifying a situation or a relationship that's causing tension in your life, or maybe there's something that's problematic to a much worse degree. It could be something that's extremely unhealthy or harmful to you or to someone else. You know, these are the relationships that sort of like keep you up at night, that like keep you ruminating on stuff. To find one of those and start defining yourself in that and take stock in some of the things, maybe, that you've owned that really is there to own theirs to own, or vice versa, maybe things that they're owning that are really mine to wrestle with and ask yourself some questions like what does it look like to set boundaries in a way that's gonna help both of us flourish? You know naming. What do you need? What are you responsible for? What do you want out of this? So, defining yourself, pick a relationship that maybe that is you want to see become healthier.

Katie: 1:01:43

Pick the relationship where this feels the hardest to do.

Josiah: 1:01:46

Yeah. And that may be the one you get, or, if you've never done this, maybe find one. That's easy first.

Katie: 1:01:51

There you go, probably better advice.

Mac: 1:01:54

No, but I mean, this is the first step. It's defining yourself and, like Katie you said, it's I statements, it's owning your you. And this is hard work, Like I'll just confess, this is hard work because so often it's easy to go through life just focused on others or responding to the demands around you. It can be. It takes a lot of discipline to sort of not just react or be constantly responding to the needs around you, but to take some reflective space to go. What do I really need? What's mine to own? What's someone else's to own? And then what are my values? What you know, who am I becoming in this moment? And then make some I statements in light of that. That's hard.

Katie: 1:02:35

It is hard and it's also awkward. You know, I had someone say to me recently like, okay, I hear what you guys are telling us to do, but like that feels like it could be awkward, and I was like, yeah, it can be. If you're not used to, you know, talking like this, I think there's a strongest. I can speak for myself and saying I feel the strong pull towards making conversations really natural and making the other person feel comfortable and not being like offensive or, you know, like wanting to keep the peace and leaning into this stuff is kind of front-loading tension Maybe is how I would put it. Like yeah, it is gonna be a little awkward and you are maybe introducing some tension, but you're doing so proactively with the goal of avoiding more tension down the road.

Josiah: 1:03:21

Yes, yeah, the book. Crucial Conversations has a term they call the pool of shared meaning. Yes, and I think that's part of what your maybe your friend was talking about is like we're not all using the same language. You're using language that's like I don't even know what you're saying. It's awkward, like I hear what you're saying, but this other person isn't gonna understand this so having conversations, especially with people that are your safe people, you can front-load these things by saying hey, I've been learning some things and I wanna be able to share them with you. When I say this, this is what I mean. And then you keep adding that and then other people add to it and it increases and then more and more understanding and safety is built within those relationships.

Katie: 1:04:04

Yeah, that's great. And the second practice is getting at what we're talking about here, which is just communicate. Like I can't emphasize this enough. Clear communication is essential for setting boundaries. As Brené Brown says, clarity is kindness, Especially if we're talking about a relationship where boundaries haven't been clear. If you're gonna start operating differently within that relationship, I think it's really important to name that. Hey, here's what I notice I've been doing and I wanna own that. Like I have some responsibility with this dynamic that's been created. Here's what I wanna do going forward. Right, we would love if people could read our minds. I mean, I would love that. I would love to never have to have any of these awkward conversations, but they can't. And I think it's important to own that.

Mac: 1:04:46

And we do this all that. I can't tell you how many times I feel like I'm a pretty direct communicator. Once you grow, you are oh yeah. But I can't tell you how many times I've been processing something with, like, my therapist and she'll like but did you tell them that? And you're like ugh, I didn't. You know what I mean. So we often like a lot of our frustration or angst in a relationship comes back to understandings or expectations or things that are going on that we've never communicated, and that really isn't fair to the other person. The best research shows that leaders under communicate by a factor of 10. And so I would just submit like, when it comes to this boundary stuff, my assumption would be most of us are not communicating what we need to be communicating in our relationships.

Katie: 1:05:31

Yeah, even if you feel like something is obvious, just don't assume it is.

Josiah: 1:05:37

Right, yeah, what is that? I've heard it said this way. I'm quoting someone that didn't know who it was. They said that the greatest and I think it's like the greatest fallacy within communication is the belief that it actually happened. Yeah.

Mac: 1:05:54

All right. So define yourself, which is tough, it's hard work. Communicate using I statements. And then, finally, I would just encourage you to normalize some resistance. Okay, when people's initial response to you putting a boundary in place especially if they've in some way been benefiting from your lack of boundaries Usually the default response is that they don't like it and they're gonna push back because you're disrupting their homeostasis. And all too often what happens is what Edwin Freeman calls a failure of nerve. So you put a boundary in place, you set a limit, someone else doesn't like it and you don't like that relational disruption. And so in order to kind of recreate that homeostasis, that sense of normalcy between you, you re-nig on your boundary that you had set in place to kind of go back to the way things were, and that's what Edwin Freeman calls a failure of nerve. So I just encourage you normalize that resistance and don't cave to it, especially if you've done the hard work of like evaluating why you have it right and you know it's consistent with your values, that it's promoting relational health, it's so important that you don't like back down to that because of that sabotage.

Josiah: 1:07:13

Yeah, it will definitely happen. I think I would add to that and say you may be on the other side of someone else naming a boundary for you and you can normalize that you will feel tension with that. You may be on the other side of it. Maybe there's a you know, maybe your propensity is when someone does define something like that. You just push past it. You're like, oh, like, I don't wanna talk about that right now. Tell me what's going on, right. So normalize the fact that you will feel tension when other people name it for you and try not to. You know raise too much anger towards other people. Realize that this is normal, yeah.

Katie: 1:07:51

And this is again where all the work from the prior episodes I think really becomes important. Because if I picture myself going into a conversation where I have to set a boundary, there's a good chance that I may feel some anxiety, and if I'm not aware of the anxiety that's gonna bubble up for me, it's gonna do more harm than good. So this is where I would just say you know, this work can be awkward, it can be difficult, it can raise anxiety. Do all the work on the front end. Know how anxiety feels in your body. Be able to tell yourself. This conversation might make me feel anxious and that's okay. I'm actually willing to lean into the anxiety because I have these tools to know how to deal with it, and a little anxiety is actually necessary for me to get to this healthier place.

Mac: 1:08:32

That's a good word. All right, friends. So big picture talked about boundaries today. They're ridiculously important and we've left you with three practices to begin implementing them Define yourself, communicate to others what your boundaries are and normalize some resistance by staying the course.

Josiah: 1:08:52

Well, thanks so much for joining us today. We hope you've been enjoying this series on emotional intelligence. I know we've enjoyed it very much. Next time we have a bonus episode where we're gonna have a special guest.

Mac: 1:09:05

Yep and we're not gonna tell people who it is right now. We're gonna leave you in suspense.

Josiah: 1:09:13

Very exciting, all right, well, we hope you'll tune in and we'll see you next time.

Katie: 1:09:19

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwi.com. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.