Cultivating a Culture of Humble Service

Katie: 0:00

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Okay, let me start that over the way of who. Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We're in a series right now focused on cultivating a healthy church culture. We've been saying that every church has a culture, whether they realize it or not, and some church cultures are reasonably healthy, while others are not, and, of course, no church is perfect. But part of the work that every church needs to do is to intentionally work to close the gap that exists between being healthy and wherever they currently are. So in this series, that's what we're doing. We're seeking to close the gap, and this involves not only talking about the marks of an unhealthy church culture, but also casting vision for how we, as the church, can embody a way of life together that, while it may not be perfect, is oriented towards goodness and kindness and love.

‍Katie: 0:59

And today we want to discuss the importance of prioritizing service. In Mark 10, jesus said to his disciples right after getting into a dispute about who was the greatest. He says whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all. For even the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. So today we want to talk about how tangible acts of loving service in the way of Jesus, within and beyond the walls of the church, is a key ingredient to cultivating communities of Tov. So here we go, let's get into it.

Mac: 1:49

Well welcome everyone. My name is Mac,

Josiah: 1:51

I'm Josiah

Katie: 1:56

and I'm Katie.

Mac: 2:02

So, Josiah, I think it's time to let our audience know your little secret.

Josiah: 2:04

What's my secret?

Adam: 2:04

Yeah, it's time.

Katie: 2:06

It's time. Well, I love the Olympics.

Mac: 2:07

He's so uncomfortable right now I know he's there's no idea what's coming. I love the Olympics. Despite the hoopla and hype surrounding the opening ceremony, I was pretty glued to it. Um, what I didn't realize until just a few weeks ago is that we actually have a gold medalist sitting here with us right now. Josiah, you've been holding out on us, so perhaps, without being overly braggadocious, maybe you could share with our listeners the gold medals you accumulated in high school.

Josiah: 2:42

Oh, my goodness. Well, they're not sports, so I don't know if that would qualify. Are you talking about forensics? Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. Had a group of us in high school that did a group interpiece for each year. We were in high school and we won gold at state for three out of those four years.

Mac: 3:01

I think what's disappointing that you shared with our staff is that the fourth year, which was your year to shine, you obtained a silver medal rather than the gold. Did you feel like robbed by that?

Josiah: 3:14

Yeah, yeah, for sure it is a bad way to end our reign.

Mac: 3:20

Do you feel like it was skill or politics, like were there other people?

Josiah: 3:23

who were sort of politics like were there other people who are sort of well, when you're at state, um, your score, uh, I believe it's out of 25. Um, you have to get a perfect score to get gold, so you can't have any marks off. And she gave us one mark off for something. Okay, and group interpretation is like you just read a script and you can't interact with each other. It's nothing but your voices telling the story. Yeah, and so at some point she thought we made a mistake.

Mac: 3:54

Did you have a wide range of voices, would you say?

Josiah: 3:57

Yeah, I mean I played a different. It was like a different character. Yeah. And you take turns like being the narrator and then things shift around but you end up, depending on what you're saying, like the. The one year we, uh, we wrote our own and uh, I was like a, a sergeant with like a harsh voice. Can you give us like a? Sample I don't know. I was not prepared for this.

Katie: 4:24

I have a question.

Josiah: 4:24

Yes.

Katie: 4:25

Is it a skill that you feel like still comes into play today?

Josiah: 4:29

I enjoy it. Yeah, I think so. I like being expressive with my voice if I need to.

Katie: 4:34

Yeah, I was going to say, you know, during worship some Sunday you could certainly. Well, I just imagine.

Josiah: 4:39

Pull out the drill, sergeant, I just imagine like.

Katie: 4:45

What is it like to be one of your kids during?

Mac: 4:46

story time before bed. You must be giving them an A-plus performance a gold medal performance.

Katie: 4:51

It would be a valuable skill for story time.

Josiah: 4:53

I do like doing that sometimes. That's amazing. Where do you display your medals now? In your home? Yeah, behind my computer screen, so that when I'm on a Zoom, call everybody can see them. That's the right move. No, in fact I don't even know where they are.

Mac: 5:11

Dude, you need to dig those out I do and you definitely need to bring them into the office and maybe put them next to the softball third place trophy. Well, speaking of gold medals, let's get into this podcast. If you've been following along, you know we're in a series on creating a healthy church culture, which is something that requires all of us. Our culture is the sum total of everyone's participation, so it's about how we all show up and do life together, and we've been inviting you throughout this series to help us remove some of the toxins in the American church soil, some of the things that are creating toxicity and unhealth, and we've also been inviting you to proactively and intentionally join us in putting positive nutrients into the soil, ones that create communities of love and goodness, that create communities of love and goodness. Today, we want to discuss another nutrient that we can prioritize as a church community, and it's serving others. We want to submit today that Tove churches are serving churches. They're comprised of people who serve one another and the communities of which they are a part. So let me start here.

Mac: 6:23

I want to start, actually, with a story in the Gospels. In Mark 10, there's a story of James and John, two brothers who are both disciples of Jesus, and they approach Jesus and ask if they can sit on Jesus's right and left hand in his kingdom, which was basically those were the two most important positions, right? So this is what they want. They want to be considered great, to be considered important, to have the best positions, with the most power. And, by the way, this is what all the other disciples wanted too, because when they hear about this request, they get really kind of frustrated with James and John, because ultimately, they want the same thing to be great, to be important, to have those positions of power, james and John. Because ultimately, they want the same thing to be great, to be important, to have those positions of power. So all the disciples want the same thing, and Jesus uses this as an opportunity to teach them about greatness and power and importance in the kingdom.

Mac: 7:14

So here's what Jesus says. He says to his disciples you know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lorded over them and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all, for even the Son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. So maybe just a couple notations. Jesus points out that the rulers of the Gentiles use power over, they're lording their power and authority over other people. But Jesus says not so among you, that's not how it's supposed to be among you all.

Mac: 8:02

And then he flips the entire value system upside down. He says whoever wants to be great must become a servant, whoever wants to be first must be last. So Jesus is sort of flipping the value system upside down. It's not power over it's power under it's greatness through service and self-sacrifice. And then Jesus points to himself as the ultimate example of this.

Mac: 8:24

The son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life away. And that's significant, because if anybody had, you know, the right to sort of lord their status over others, it would have been Jesus, who is God in the flesh. But Jesus does the exact opposite he serves others and gives his life away. He doesn't prioritize a life of upward mobility, of status and power over other people, but actually the exact opposite. He models a life of downward mobility where he steadily and repeatedly chooses to meet those at the bottom, where they are in humble service and love.

Mac: 9:00

So our contention today is that Tove churches do the same. They are places where people live out of other-centered, self-sacrificial love, and of course this starts with leadership. We've talked a lot about tone at the top, with leaders who love and serve and give their lives away, and then everyone is invited to do the same, such that this defines how we relate to one another as a community and how we engage the world around us. We love and serve the world as the hands and feet of Jesus. So I realize that I've kind of presented sort of the conclusion right up front at the top here, but it seems to me that the same issue that Jesus addresses with his disciples this desire to be great and to have power and status it's the same issue or rub we're seeing in the church today, from both pastors and maybe even entire congregations. So let's flesh this out a bit. Do you guys see this dynamic too?

Josiah: 9:55

Yeah, I don't think it's very difficult to go online and find a bunch of celebrity pastors. Let's just say that off the bat. In my opinion well, I wouldn't even say in my opinion, I think objectively it is an entire category of media influence of being a celebrity pastor, someone who has great status, someone who has a great following, either on Instagram, tiktok, like X or whatever it is. They have all this following, all these people who look up to them and, as a result of that, this shroud gets created around them where they become larger than life. If you think of other, just try to. If we're talking about celebrity status, let's try to attach it to someone who maybe isn't in the church. Think of someone like Taylor Swift. Just about everybody, unless you live under a rock, knows who Taylor Swift is.

Josiah: 10:55

Tay-Tay Right. So Taylor Swift is not a person anymore. She's an icon.

Katie: 11:01

She's something bigger than just a person.

Josiah: 11:05

That same thing happens within churches, and the tension is real. In the book they talk about, he shows a picture of the spectrum where on one side it is serving yourself and the other side is serving others and the other side is serving others, and the tension that he's presenting is the one that you were just saying. That happened with James and John that the desire to serve yourself becomes a greater pull than serving others. This idea of serving others is something that will pull us to the other side of the spectrum. Finding ways to serve others in an ordinary fashion that doesn't just make yourself look good is this antidote to pulling you away from serving yourself in spaces where you do have influence. And I really like this quote from the book. I think it kind of summarizes a little bit of what you were saying too, mac.

Josiah: 12:07

They say Jesus was completely against the celebrity culture that was quickly forming around a few of his closest followers. James and John in particular, were beginning to imagine themselves as MVPs of the apostolic band, but Jesus reset the bar for them. The temptation here is obvious Self-concern and self-care must be balanced by an other's orientation, or we will become self-intoxicated celebrities in our own minds. So there's this tension and if we're just honest, instead of trying to villainize people who are self-intoxicated, I think that tension exists in all of us.

Josiah: 12:50

No matter what we're doing, this temptation of wanting to be recognized, wanting to feel important like you have a significant role to play. But I think that the sobering part is, rather than looking at the big, mega churches as the problem which I'm sure mega, many mega church pastors are are celebrities in their own right, um, many small church pastors think they're celebrities too.

Mac: 13:21

Yeah yeah, you don't have to have a church at 10,000 to you know. Have that self-serving mindset.

Josiah: 13:30

Yeah, yeah. Another quote from the book is that it's not about the size of the church but the size of the pastor's ego.

Mac: 13:38

Well, and you know, there's this guy named Andrew Root and he's a professor at Luther. He's written a lot about being the church and pastoring in a post-secular age and he talks about how, like, where does the credibility of a pastor come from? And it's changed throughout history. It's like in the medieval ages. It was sort of like you are the ones who oversaw the sacraments and so, like, that carried. That's what gave you authority and credibility. During the Reformation it shifted to education and knowledge, because all of a sudden you have pastors who are studying in the original languages and they're the experts of the scripture, and so one's authority and credibility came from knowledge. Then, in the 1950s, it's shifted to sort of institutionalism. Right, it was embedded in the institution itself, but with the church growth model, what's happened is it's actually shifted to social status and popularity.

Mac: 14:42

And I think what we're naming and have named really throughout this podcast from day one, is that no, no, no, like. Our authority needs to actually come from our character. Our credibility needs to be our likeness to Christ and Jesus came to serve and to give his life away and that then serves as an antidote to the celebrity culture that maybe we all subtly crave, which is why we need to actively resist. It Like this is why John the Baptist is such a compelling example. Here's a guy who's not the guy. He knows that he's pointing to the guy, namely Jesus. He recruits a bunch of disciples and then, when Jesus shows up, his disciples start following Jesus and he encourages them to do so. And names he must decrease. You know, he must increase and I must decrease, right? I mean? That's a powerful mentality that I think we all need to incorporate into our lives that, like Jesus, must increase and I must decrease.

Katie: 15:42

Yeah, so I hear you saying it's not just pastors who deal with this. It's kind of something inherent in all of us. We all have this desire to be known, to be respected, to be recognized. But then you put that kind of human default into the current cultural context where everyone has a platform and it's so easy to create a following, and it's the temptation that I can post something online because everyone wants to know what I think and what I believe and what my opinion is, and I can get all these reactions and it's just like putting gas on a fire and I think that cultural moment just has to be recognized.

Mac: 16:17

Yeah, I mean, I get. This is not an exaggeration. I get about two to three emails a month from consulting groups, some sort of church support group, some entity that exists to help your church or serve pastors, basically going hey, we can make your church grow and we can make you popular, Reach out to us.

Josiah: 16:40

It's a very interesting fusion that happens when you look at the human tendency to want recognition and status and to feel important, and then you fuse that with but I'm serving God, and so I convince myself that I'm not promoting myself. I'm really promoting God and I'm saying that you can't see this, but I'm making quotations that I'm serving God by becoming a celebrity, and I know that's not like outwardly stated, but that is what's happening. You think that you're promoting God and his kingdom by becoming really popular and propping yourself up as a status and an example for all.

Mac: 17:31

Yeah, this is why Robert Mulholland Jr. He's a professor, I think at Asbury, I can't remember where he he lived out his tenure but um, he talks about the false self. Right, and how exactly what we're talking about. Like our false self, we feed our ego. And then he talks about the religious false self and he says this is just sober. When I read it it was so sobering. He said the only difference between the false self and the religious false self is that you've brought God into it. You're still feeding your false self. You're just doing it in the name of God. Now.

Katie: 18:01

Funny.

Mac: 18:02

Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot to unpack here, but I guess it's worth noting. We're saying, hey, tove churches are serving churches, which automatically, you know, kind of shines a spotlight on our own inner narcissism and desire to be great and important, and service then helps us. It's an antidote to that, because serving isn't always sexy, you know.

Katie: 18:28

Certainly not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think I mean, obviously, service is, I think, something that anyone would hear and go, yeah, like serving other people is really important. We want that. But there are some challenges, I think, some like realistic obstacles that can get in the way of that, and I'm hoping we can take a moment just to unpack what are those.

Katie: 18:48

One I might submit to Stardust would be the book names this as self-care. The book that we're reading through talks about how being service-oriented is good and should be pursued. But some churches can get so committed to serving that they burn themselves out completely and end up exhausted and then sometimes just throw in the towel altogether because they haven't prioritized sort of their own wellbeing, good rhythms of rest, whatever that may be. And I say the saying that I think the term self-care is kind of trendy right now, like we could fill that in in all sorts of like helpful or unhelpful ways. So even saying self-care I'm sure brings up some connotations, but I think the basic idea is that we just need to be continually checking in with ourselves to see am I feeling burned out, exhausted? Am I doing from this, from this place of feeling like any sort of just anxiety or guilt or shame, or am I truly feeling like, filled up, like yes? This is how God has wired me and I'm responding to his grace and to his work in my life by serving others.

Mac: 19:51

Yeah, no, I think that's a legitimate point. I mean, if you're going to invite people into service, you've got to wrestle with the sustainability of it. I mean, it's no secret. I see a therapist and my therapist has told me the three top professions that comprise clients like these are the top three that are coming to see her for help are healthcare professionals, teachers and pastors. All of those have a service component to them. It's hard.

Mac: 20:25

It's hard and I feel it. I mean I know most people don't associate me with kind of being a people pleaser because I'm able to define myself and so on, but man, I don't know a single pastor that doesn't struggle with that to some degree. I mean, just recently I had a couple that I really like. They got engaged and they approached me and said, hey, would you be willing to do the wedding, would you officiate it? And I said okay, yeah, when is it? And the date they named I'm getting. So that night I have to do the rehearsal.

Mac: 21:05

Okay, there's no way I can do that wedding. But honestly in my mind I'm like I don't want to let them down. Maybe I could squeeze it in, like maybe there's a way to like finagle the rehearsal when I'm gone so that they know what they're doing and I can do the other rehearsal and then sprint over because I don't want to let them down. You know what I mean. It's uncomfortable to disappoint people and yet if we're going to be able to care truly care for people of the long run, we have to kind of like increase our tolerance for disappointing people, knowing that we can't serve and meet everyone's needs.

Katie: 21:43

Yeah, I do. I see, yes, I see you prioritizing that and I wouldn't say struggling with it, but acknowledging that tension, and I think that having those boundaries and recognizing sort of what you can do and what you can't do will actually help us have a more sustainable life of service over the longterm. Right, if you didn't do that, you get burned out and then you're no help to anyone anyways.

Mac: 22:08

Right, yeah, and with this couple. I don't know if this is the right move or not, but I just named it. I really don't want to disappoint you, but I have. This is what's going on that weekend and I feel I feel bad about it because I'd really like to be there and now it's become a joke. They responded really graciously, but now it's just become a funny thing because I was honest about it.

Josiah: 22:31

Yeah, I think that self-care gets these negative connotations in certain Christian circles because it does prioritize effectively. It prioritizes yourself over others. Effectively, it prioritizes yourself over others. But my point back to that would say that I think that Christlike response in serving is whatever you're doing towards others, you're doing on purpose. And if you're doing things compulsively because of this drive to people please or this drive to say, oh, if I let them down, then they're going to think I'm not as good, right, so we're being driven by compulsively out of a false self.

Josiah: 23:14

And if you don't take the time to prioritize things, like you were talking about rhythms of work and rest and having regular moments where you're away with Jesus, and you're doing things that are recharging you authentically recharging you, not puffing you up You're going to be able to respond to things and do them on purpose, not have a full cup, and that is the way we are designed to live. Is every season going to be perfect with that? No, there are plenty of seasons where you're like I got to get through this. But I think that whatever we're doing for God, we should be doing on purpose and not compulsively driven by some other sort of thing, and self-care is a way to ensure that you're aware of what is happening internally and you're giving it authentically on purpose, for the right reasons.

Mac: 24:03

Yeah, we should circle back to this, maybe do an entire episode on self-care, because I do think there's a lot to unpack on. I think some people use the label self-care to be self-indulgent, you know, or selfish, and I don't think that's what we're saying. I think caring for yourself is really about creating space so that God can care for you, so he can fill you up, so then you can overflow and give yourself away again, and there's a rhythm to that right, yeah, or you're filled and then you empty yourself.

Mac: 24:30

You fill and then you empty yourself, and I just think there's a lot to unpack about what that actually looks like in a way that's honoring to God, to yourself and to others.

Josiah: 24:40

Yeah, Anyone who's a parent, it wouldn't be very hard to find times when you're like you have overspent yourself and what happens? You get crabby and resentful, and I'm like I am not being a very peaceful presence in our home right now, like I need some time. So, yeah, we want to be able to show up as our best.

Katie: 25:00

Josiah, when you said, for some reason, when you said I just got to get through this, that song came into my mind and I just can knock it out of my head now.

Mac: 25:12

What song is it I got to?

Katie: 25:12

get through this. It's like a really bad song.

Mac: 25:13

That line just repeats over and over Adam, anything Okay.

Katie: 25:16

Maybe we can find it and throw it into the podcast.

Mac: 25:18

You're going to have to do a better job singing it.

Katie: 25:20

Well, I'm not going to do that, I'll spare you all. Maybe I'll find it and have Josiah sing it.

Mac: 25:25

All right, interesting, okay. So one temptation or problem challenge when it comes to building out a serving culture is just how self-care intersects with it. We don't want to serve ourselves to the point of burning out, and then I can't do this, I just need to hang on, right, maybe? Another temptation we alluded to this earlier was serving to be noticed, you know when again we're like serving, but in a way that builds up our ego and sort of elevates our status. We serve to be celebrated, we serve to sort of increase our religious persona, to look good or be admired.

Mac: 26:06

And of course, this was a major problem for the religious leaders in Jesus's day, and it's one that he talked about and specifically gave teachings to avoid that. He's like hey, when you give which is something they did very publicly, he said, don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. In other words, give privately, to avoid that sort of giving to be noticed. Or hey, when you fast, don't do it in a way that's obvious so that everybody knows about it and can see, oh, he's fasting, right, making your piety known, but rather do it subtly so that God can see it and be. These were people who prayed on the street corners so that other people go wow, they're so spiritual, right? Jesus says go into your prayer closet, where nobody can see you, to kind of clarify your motivation of why you're praying in the first place. I don't know, do you guys notice that too Like this kind of way of serving in a way that's really about self-promotion.

Katie: 27:09

So I was watching a documentary. I don't watch a lot of TV, but I was sick. I think it was when I had pneumonia a year or two ago. I was watching the Harry and Meghan miniseries on Netflix.

Katie: 27:20

And this is an example from outside the church, but I think it illustrates what you're getting at. And this is an example from outside the church, but I think it illustrates what you're getting at. Meghan Markle had become aware of a fire in London in like a housing complex, and a whole bunch of people were displaced and she got to know some of the I think it was women, I think it was an all-women housing complex and she got to know some of the residents and ended up showing up at this community kitchen that was feeding these people while they were displaced. And so there's this whole section of her like being at this community kitchen that was feeding these people while they were displaced, and and so there's this whole section of her like being at this community kitchen and helping serve and she's talking about the importance of serving. But it was just kind of ironic. I'm like, well, you're serving, but with you're doing it with this like barrage of newspapers and media and paparazzi yeah.

Katie: 27:58

Yeah and okay, caveat. I learned in the mini series that I think Meghan Markle actually does prioritize service and has done it quite a bit in her life outside of the spotlight. And she's the royal family, so of course they're going to follow her. It's not really her fault, but just like the image of serving, with all of that, I'm like okay, like can we talk about this for a second? Like you're serving almost to market, like you're marketing the royal family through your service.

Mac: 28:23

Yeah.

Katie: 28:24

Which I guess there are worse things to market. Yeah, but it just seems to undercut the point of serving.

Mac: 28:29

Yeah, like I'm going to vacuum the foyer as the lead pastor, but could you guys take pictures while? I do it and then like put it on social media so everybody can see.

Katie: 28:39

Yeah.

Josiah: 28:40

Yeah, yeah, people, especially on social media, like to. I think they equate how hard they hustle as an act of service, how hard they hustle to do all the things for the kingdom, when a lot of it is self-promotion. You know, like, how much they work. They're just constantly present on your feeds and, honestly, some of them I haven't unfollowed simply because it bothers me and I guess I just observe. I'm trying to observe, like I'm wondering, you know some of the things they say or post. I'm like I'm wondering their motivation. But yeah, it's like there's this temptation to take anything that I'm doing and finding a way to help it increase my status.

Mac: 29:35

Yeah, and of course that's the attitude that the Pharisee had in the story that Jesus told a little parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in the temple. What does he do? I mean, his self-righteousness is rooted in look how much I fast each week and look at how much I tithe and give away Right. So and again, we're kind of talking about pastors and you know that seems to be all the examples that are coming up, but let's not forget that this can happen just with regular, everyday churchgoers as well. I think we want to be critical at the top because we want to set the tone at the top right.

Katie: 30:14

I took a mission trip to Haiti shortly after the big hurricane there in 2011, 2012. The hurricane was in 2011. I went in 2012. And I remember we were working and staying at like an orphanage and I remember just lots of people taking pictures with all the kids, you know and and posting them and I think I took one, or I think I took a couple too. So I'm not, I'm not looking down on other people.

Katie: 30:40

But no, what stuck out to me is, as we were traveling back, there was a young woman around my age who just made the comment. She's like I don't take pictures when I come on these trips because these are kids, this is their life and I'm not going to promote. And I remember that stuck out to me and I hadn't really thought about it before and all of a sudden it kind of opened my eyes to just think to this idea of serving and I don't think the stuff is malicious right, I really enjoyed getting to know these kids, I really enjoyed the work I was doing. So there's nothing malicious about me wanting to promote myself, but it just did open my eyes to how common and how I guess, insidious it can be too.

Mac: 31:17

Yeah, yeah, sometimes we don't even have eyes to see it because it's so commonplace. All right, well, let's transition. We've talked about hey, we want to be a serving community. Here are a couple of things we need to be aware of. We need to be aware of serving to the point of burnout and how to care for ourselves along the way. We've talked about this temptation of actually using our service to increase our status. Let's look at Jesus. How do you guys see Jesus embodying a life of service if we're to follow in his footsteps. Life of service if we're to follow in his footsteps.

Josiah: 31:51

Yeah well, first one I'd name is that he lived a life of downward mobility, and that's definitely what we mean by that is, instead of trying to climb a ladder and increase your status, jesus continually laid that down and went below the status in order to be more present to the people that he was there to care for.

Josiah: 32:17

You know, like all of us live in a society where climbing the ladder and increasing your status and getting further ahead becomes the drive to do everything, where it has infected our church culture as well. Jesus demonstrated quite the opposite. We see that he was born among the poor. He had no status to begin with, spent most of his time around people that would have not only were they not celebrities, they probably would have decreased his social standing among the people around him and he was caring and serving others. Caring for and serving others in ways that weren't necessarily making him popular, especially among the people who had the power to increase that status. To increase that status and the people that had the status or at least had cornered the market on that, jesus had continual challenge for them.

Mac: 33:18

Yeah, which also would have decreased his status. Yeah, because most people are trying to get into those circles. Jesus is challenging those people who run in those circles.

Josiah: 33:28

Yeah, yeah, so Jesus lived his life circles. Yeah, yeah, so the um Jesus lived his life. Um, and when you, when you put those lenses on, you can almost sort of see that Jesus, uh, lived most of his life, not only like just actively resisting that and, um, making decisions almost purposefully to decrease that.

Mac: 33:48

Yeah, one, one example. I mean there's lots of them, there's lots of people who have followed in Jesus's footsteps here, but one example that I think of is Henry Nouwen, and he's actually the first person I encountered to use that phrase downward mobility, but he was, you know, he had a really incredible career, teaching at Yale and kind of like a rising star in in theology and and gave it all up to work and live among people who are experiencing disabilities and that's where he lived out the rest of his life. And it's just this very powerful example of someone who was on the path to stardom and intentionally, because of what you're saying, chose to walk away from all of that when he didn't have to, and then, I think, picked a pretty humble but more rewarding way to live actually, which is to live among the disabled, building reciprocal relationships.

Katie: 34:49

Which is mind blowing. Yeah, like, can you actually imagine doing that? Nobody would do that today. I just feel like it's really to actually think about being on this tenure track at Ivy League schools, increasing prominence status, and he had ideas that I'm sure were worth sharing. Right, like a lot of these pastors who want a platform are doing it arguably, for probably good reasons, like they have ideas and want to tell people about God, whatever. Those are all really good things, but to truly give that up shows, I just think, a really sincere commitment to actually living out what we see Jesus doing. That's incredible to me.

Josiah: 35:29

Yeah.

Katie: 35:30

Yeah, so maybe so okay, I hear you saying Jesus loved this life of downward mobility, something related to that. I would say he he actively resisted celebrity status, Like when the celebrity status was almost just became part of his ministry. He pushed against it. People did start following him. We do see him starting to kind of draw these crowds and he did things to push against that. For example, he performs a miracle and then he tells people don't tell anyone. Like who would do that today? What pastor would be like performing miracles? If there was a pastor who was doing miracles in this country, they would be telling everybody about it. It would be all over the place. It'd be plastered over social media. They would be creating kind of a massive marketing campaign to tell about it. So I think that says a lot.

Katie: 36:19

Jesus also said really hard but loving things that caused many people to leave him. If you notice how he speaks and how he offers challenge, he doesn't mince words. He doesn't soften what he says to make it more palatable for people. He speaks very directly and frankly, often says things that people don't like and we know this because they walk away. Like if his ultimate goal was to be a celebrity, he certainly wouldn't have said a lot of the things that he says.

Katie: 36:48

And then, thirdly, Jesus often sneaks away from the spotlight to be alone with God. After he feeds the 5,000, right after the crowds are kind of getting large and he feeds them, he just like gracefully exits stage left. He's like see you guys, I need some time to be alone with the father. And again, just comparing that to modern and it's not just like pastors, other people, me, I'm someone who spends a decent amount of time on the stage I can't imagine being like okay, today's the day when our sanctuary is as full as it's ever been, Like this is the moment, this is our big opportunity to like entertain people or like give them, you know, do something to make them want to come back, or give a lot of money or whatever. I can't imagine, at that very moment, being like actually, I'm just going to go in the chapel.

Mac: 37:31

Go to the prayer trails.

Katie: 37:33

I'm going to go. I'm going to be back here and just pray, see you guys, yeah see ya, I can't imagine that. So I think to think about this in our context is really convicting for me. To just look at Jesus' example and go. You know, it certainly goes against every fiber in my being, especially in the church context.

Mac: 37:52

Yeah, yeah, I mean in the chapter Scott and Laura's book Church Called Tov they use that phrase. Jesus was the anti-celebrity. You know, he's like the anti-celebrity celebrity and in many respects he would have been considered sort of a pastoral failure in his time. Right, because at one point he feeds 5,000 people but spends most of his time investing in 12, and within that three and after he goes to the cross and is raised from the dead, he has 120. You know, like 120.

Katie: 38:29

That's not a lot of people, right you?

Mac: 38:30

know like 120. It's not a lot of people, Right?

Katie: 38:40

So I think it's worth considering if Jesus were here today he would be considered probably a pastoral, a subpar pastor. Isn't that ironic?

Mac: 38:44

Yeah.

Katie: 38:44

Just to share another quick quote from the book. They say celebrities want glory and fame. Jesus wants followers who deny glory and fame to pursue a life of service. Pastors are not celebrities and churches are not celebrity churches. Pastors, leaders and churches are to be known for what their Lord and Savior is known for Sacrifice for the sake of others, service servanthood.

Mac: 39:08

Yeah, so we've talked about how did Jesus embody this downward mobility, actively resisting the celebrity status, even when people are trying to push him towards that. And then the most obvious example is just that Jesus goes to the cross I mean, this is what he points to in that moment with the disciples, he said even the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life away. There's that example in John 13, where they're celebrating Passover and during the meal he gets up and removes his outer garment, fills a basin with water and begins to wash his disciples feet, which, of course, contextually in John's gospel, is foreshadowing the cross when Jesus will be stripped of his clothes and crucified for the cleansing of our sin. Right, it's foreshadowing the cross when Jesus will be stripped of his clothes and crucified for the cleansing of our sin. Right, it's foreshadowing that moment. But what's interesting at the end of that foot washing moment is that Jesus actually tells us that we're supposed to do the same thing.

Mac: 40:02

He says when. It says when he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. Do you understand what I've done for you? He says you call me teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. I have set an example that you should do as I have done for you. Very truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. So you know, it's just. Jesus is explicitly connecting the dots for us that like hey, this is how I live, and now you're supposed to do the same.

Josiah: 40:42

Do you know I just had a moment when you were reading that you notice that Jesus, leveraged in that phrase, he's like you call me Lord, and rightly so. So with that influence that I have over you, like I'm acknowledging it I'm going to use that to then tell you to go serve people. He's recognizing and I was thinking of this earlier too you can't necessarily help the influence you have. Like, if you have influence, a lot of times it's given to you or as a part of your position, and a lot of this is what we're talking about. It's like because you're in a leadership position and you have influence. All of this is like being responsible with it. And even Jesus is recognizing you're calling me Lord and teacher, that I am to you. So I'm going to leverage that influence I have in a way that's going to like tell you that if you think of me this way, then you need to go serve others in the same way I've served you.

Mac: 41:49

I just think that's really interesting.

Mac: 41:50

Yeah, there's definitely a I like what you said. You can't control the influence you have, I mean. But there's a difference, and we talked about this many episodes ago, where we talked about people who have influence because of who they are and what they've done. I think of like a Eugene Peterson who resisted a lot of this but out of his faithful pastoring for decades, you know, influenced a lot of people, but he resisted climbing into the spotlight for that purpose, right, like that wasn't his motivation, right. So that's very different than having influence because of who you are and what you're doing and other people seeing it and being compelled by it is different than intentionally seeking it out as an end in and of itself. Yes, right.

Josiah: 42:35

Yes, and I would add that there's a responsibility that comes along with it, and if you don't recognize it, you're going to do more damage than just in your own ego and in your own church.

Mac: 42:48

All right. So we've talked about how Jesus modeled us a little bit downward mobility, resisting status, going to the cross. Let's talk about us as a community for a bit. How can we follow Jesus's example and embody this together? What comes to your mind?

Katie: 43:05

I think one thing that Jesus often encourages us to do is to look at our hearts right. Like there are all sorts of examples where people try to do what they think God would want them to do, but it's more like they're focused on the external behavior, when the heart posture underneath it is not aligned. And Jesus we see Jesus kind of call us out for that and go wait a second. Like where's your heart in this? Like are you doing this for the right reasons? And I think Philippians 2 gives us a good example of how Jesus did this. Like Jesus was literally God in the flesh and yet he made himself a servant. It says in your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used in his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking on the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness. So I think it just requires us to look at when I'm serving, kind of what are my motives? What am I hoping to get out of it? Am I using this to kind of prop myself up, prop my church up, or am I just doing it to follow Jesus's example, and do what I think he has called me to do. There's a story that I want to share here that popped up as I was preparing for this.

Katie: 44:25

This morning, when we lived in Alex and I lived in Madison before we had kids we went to serve at I guess you would call it like a soup kitchen. It was a kitchen in an area that had a big homeless population and you would bring food, you would sign up for a day, you'd bring food, you'd prepare the food and then you would share a meal with those who came to eat. So it was a neat model. But we're there, we're kind of in the kitchen, and I referred to what we were doing as serving, like I said something like oh so how long have you been serving here, or something like that, and the guy who was in charge of it like grabbed onto me not physically grabbed onto me, like he looked at me very directly and then said we don't use the term serving here. And then he proceeded to tell me why what they don't call what they're doing serving. They call it like sharing a meal, because he felt like there was some connotation of superiority with the term serving.

Katie: 45:17

But when I say, he like clung on to me, he followed me around the entire night and continued to lecture me on why I shouldn't use the term serving. So, granted, I never went back to that place because that sort of felt like going overboard, like it didn't. It made feel kind of small and I just didn't feel like I needed to get lectured the entire night. But my point is it did make me think. It did make me think about yeah, when we're serving, are we doing it with this heart posture of superiority? I think it can be really subtle and we can not even be aware of it but are we coming at it with this sense of I'm sort of giving something to this person? Or are we seeing the people that we're serving as truly equal in dignity and worth and made in the image of God as ourselves?

Mac: 46:05

Absolutely. I mean there's a power imbalance when someone is giving and the other person is receiving, and so if you're standing in line at a grocery store and you realize you've come up short, you don't have enough money to pay, and someone behind you is like, oh, I'll cover it for you, that feels the person offering may feel great about themselves, but you feel like a charity case. It's somewhat humiliating. I have a neighbor who every time we've done something for them, she feels obligated to do something in response. Why? Because she's feeling that power imbalance and so part of our, I think, moving towards people like my neighbors, I've learned it's better for me to receive from them first than to give to them. It actually creates space that otherwise wouldn't exist.

Mac: 46:54

Oh interesting, like when I go, hey, I don't have this tool, do you have this? They feel awesome about that, and then it creates a different kind of a relationship than if I'm like kind of treating them as a charity case. Let me help you, let me resource you.

Katie: 47:10

Yeah, there is the example in the book of who was it who grew up poor and remembers a church always bringing like food to their home and every time they would bring them, like, I think, a Christmas basket, they would try to share the gospel and he just remembers being like the least open to the churches that were bringing the gifts. Yeah, because he felt like a charity case.

Mac: 47:32

Right, right. This is why I think, part of the reason why Jesus, when he sends out the 70 to in Luke, Luke's gospel, he sends them out empty handed and they have to go, rely on the very, the hospitality of those they're trying to reach right, Like he sends them out. Don't bring a bag, a purse, a sandal, like. Don't do that. Rather, when you enter a house, say all you're offering is peace. It's the only thing you're bringing with you is a posture of peace. So there's a lot to unpack. I think you're right. We need to tend to our hearts. Katie, I also would probably just name how countercultural this is especially for us Americans.

Mac: 48:12

I mean, we're living in a culture that, for a couple hundred years, has placed a premium on individual rights and liberties. Let's just acknowledge that, and it's not entirely a bad thing. The founding of our country took place against the backdrop of a monarchy where individual rights and liberties were being denied, and so to have the pendulum swing and go no, no, no, we're going to place a premium on individual rights and liberties was a huge, giant step in the right direction, absolutely. However, when you're living in a culture that's all about your individual rights and liberties, it gives a lot of permission for people to be selfish and only prioritize themselves, and this can create a conflict when people's rights and liberties are in tension. For instance, we had no idea how to navigate the pandemic as a culture.

Mac: 49:13

Why? Because any uniform policy would have violated someone's rights, right, and so if we shut down, you're violating someone's rights where they don't want to shut down, right. If you mandate a mask or whatever, no matter what move you made, someone is going. Now, that's infringing upon what I want, right. So what I'm saying is is that, like perhaps it was a little bit startling to me during that season was just how few people I encountered were relating to that season, with Philippians 2 in mind, which was to go okay, jesus calls us to have his same attitude in mind, which is to not just look out for our own interests but also the interests of other people. And I'm not saying that, saying okay, so that means we wear masks and shut down or whatever, like I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like, if that's our posture, that changes the conversation Right.

Katie: 50:13

Yeah, I think that's a good example.

Josiah: 50:18

Yeah, yeah. Another way we can embody this as a community is to celebrate service instead of the celebrities. You know we have vision statements around. You know we want we have vision statements around. Uh, you know we want, we, we want to go beyond attendance. We want everyone who um calls cross point home to uh be using their gifts and investing into the community. Um, but there's a bigger. It's more than just getting stuff done, like.

Josiah: 50:47

The reason why we are passionate about that is because we want to find a way to celebrate the way people are investing and serving one another, and not just to reach the end goal of our church's personal mission.

Josiah: 51:04

This is about creating a culture in which it becomes normal to give of yourself and serve for the better of the community. Yeah, and I think that one of the things that came to my mind was I think that it would be important for churches to find ways to publicly honor people who aren't staff members. So there'd be a very tangible way and same thing for us, like if the people you're highlighting and the people who are always front and center are the staff members find ways to publicly honor people who are not, I think there'd be a good little antidote to say no, we don't. It's easy to take the staff members and the pastoral staff. You know, obviously they do give a and it's fine to honor them, but when we're talking about publicly, it speaks a lot to say I'm going to honor this person instead. Finding ways to do that would be really important and honoring service over the big flashy stuff.

Mac: 52:09

Well, I see you doing that, Josiah. You've been the one to kind of take the lead on having a banquet for those who have served or are serving in our community, and that I love that night the times we've done it, because some of the people who serve in the most subtle ways, you know, it's just so fun to cheer them on and thank them for all the ways they serve that nobody even knows about. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Josiah: 52:35

Yeah, and it's also, you know, it's so meaningful when you start doing it because you realize that so many of these people they don't actually want to be honored and thanked because they're just used to serving in the background, and there's something very uh, it's very meaningful and inspiring to and it's fun to say like no, we're going to do it anyway. Um, and the less they want it, the more you want to do it for them.

Josiah: 53:03

Um, so yeah, it does create some really beautiful moments. That that would be a way that you can embody it as a church is finding ways to highlight that and and you know, especially as a church staff find ways to serve the people who are volunteering. Yeah, yeah.

Mac: 53:21

And then finally, I might just say we just need to learn to live humbly. You know, I mean, if we all have egos and there's this desire to feel great, be great, look great, all that stuff we just need to normalize. That's the thing. We need to actively resist that and just learn how to embrace humility. And of course, it starts at the top with leaders. Leaders need to serve other people. They can't just be in the spotlight all the time. You know, the more a pastor acts like a celebrity, the less time they'll actually spend serving other people. I'm really proud of our leadership team. They're all in positions of leadership, but they all, I believe, serve in our kids' ministry, which oftentimes people don't want to do because it can be hard work.

Mac: 54:06

We've talked a lot about this one, but pastors need to learn how to share the spotlight. They shouldn't be on the stage every weekend in bright lights. They need to learn how to share the microphone and that spotlight with other people. They need to develop the discipline of losing arguments. There's this famous story of Dallas Willard, who was in a debate and his opponent made some statements that he could have easily crushed, and he didn't respond to it. And afterwards, someone who knew him well approached him and said well, why didn't you like you could have crushed that argument? And he responded I'm prioritizing the spiritual practice of not needing the last word. And I just thought, huh, like that's an intentional practice.

Mac: 54:50

That's an intentional practice of like, embracing humility and even appearing like you didn't have a response, or you know what I mean?

Katie: 54:58

Yeah, they don't teach you that in debate class.

Mac: 55:00

Yeah, what does it look like in everyday conversations to practice, prioritize the spiritual practice of not needing the last word. I think there's opportunity to embrace humility by just admitting when you make a mistake or mess up, being transparent about that, and then that's leaders, but this includes all of us. I mean, if you're listening to this, spend time in Philippians 2. Memorize that passage Genuinely. Consider the needs of other people. Find ways to put other people's interests before your own. Find ways to serve, to get plugged in, be willing to be wrong, admit mistakes. Don't insist on having to have it your way. When you see a need, jump in and lend a helping hand. There's all kinds of ways where you can just every single day, um, choose the humble, the humble path, the humble route.

Katie: 55:50

Yeah, that's really good stuff. I love that story about Dallas. I could not see myself doing that.

Josiah: 55:56

It is so difficult. I I have I have learned to practice it more and I have found that the especially with kids, when you're getting heated, the tendency is to want to like like, get big, get big, get the last word in, get them to stop, stop the argument. And I found that there is a. There's a a leveling that happens, that you can connect when you're not always doing that and you're willing to ask more questions and not feel like you have to win it.

Mac: 56:26

Totally Just this past week it was a week ago, I think a little over a week ago was the debate between Trump and Harris and we were out of town Josie and I were out of town for it, but my boys watched it with my parents. And so this past weekend my oldest son, tig, was kind of like sharing his opinions and was very kind of like adamant and kind of forceful about what he thought, and I, as he was talking about, of course, had all kinds of thoughts that would like complexify these matters for him, but I just didn't say anything.

Mac: 57:06

I just thought, hey, here's an opportunity where he's defining himself, that's wonderful. And then the next day, when I was driving to school, I said hey, do you remember when we were talking about the debate? And he said yeah. And I said man, I really appreciate you sharing what you thought, and those issues are way more complex than I think some of your comments that you realize. So I kind of let there's more to this. But what I care about most is that you and I can just talk about it, and that was a win for me because, like internally, I want to kind of like pounce on those moments and be like no, that's why you know what.

Mac: 57:41

I mean we all feel that, so that was a win for me.

Katie: 57:46

Yeah, okay, we've talked a lot. Let's move into some praxises.

Mac: 57:52

It's praxis time.

Katie: 57:54

Praxises, praxises Praxis bad gas, All right. What would you guys say? Are some concrete?

Josiah: 58:07

if someone's listening to this like, what are some concrete practices they can put into place to prioritize a life of service? Yeah Well, just start in your own home. Start by doing an audit of your own circles. It could start by just examining and being willing to name, like, what are some of the ways that I've prioritized serving myself over serving others? You know, obviously I give the example of parenting a lot. Maybe you're not, but all of us exist in circles where we have influence or are being influenced by others, and I think that, being able to look soberly at what is actually happening, we may find that in our homes, maybe we're embracing a celebrity status.

Josiah: 58:49

I mean maybe you wouldn't name it as that, but Make me a sandwich. Yeah, Maybe you don't realize how much your influence. You're leveraging it without realizing it. And what would it look like to then leverage that influence to serve your family instead of being served?

Mac: 59:11

I heard this statement the other day and it's been challenging me. The comment was every minute is an opportunity to grow in love. And I've been wrestling with that because I'm now realizing how many minutes I waste when I could be loving. So, for instance, when I'm making my coffee in the morning, there's a couple minutes there when, like the water is heating up, I'm waiting for it to reach temperature, and I look over and like there's the sink and it's got some dishes in it, you know. And so I've had this. I'm like there's the sink and it's got some dishes in it, and so I've had this. I'm trying to develop this new mindset. When I see the need in my house to go, if I don't do it, someone else is gonna have to, and it's usually Josie right, Because we're the adults and so taking advantage of those opportunities, when I see a need to step into it and I'm realizing there's a growth for me there when I see the need, there's often some internal resistance.

Josiah: 1:00:10

It's the last thing I want to do.

Katie: 1:00:12

I hate quotes like that. I just hate it, I know Well it's convicting Too much pressure.

Josiah: 1:00:17

Yes it's convicting. Yeah, I've said I have been saying things very recently, it's kind of been on repeat in our home is teaching kids to embrace the responsibility of doing their part to make our home a nice place to live for everybody is trying to, instead of saying, you know, do your chores. Or try to power up and make them do something. For me it's hey, all of us play a part here and I'll ask them the question. I was like so hey, your chore is the dishes. I don't want to do the dishes.

Josiah: 1:00:51

Okay. I was like okay and like it's not fair. You know I love those types of statements. It's not fair?

Katie: 1:00:56

I it's not fair. I shouldn't have to do them.

Josiah: 1:00:59

I just ask, like, so who would it be more fair to have them do them? Like, in your mind, is it more fair that we have to do it, as the parents, you know, and it's like, oh, like I'm trying to shape that Of course I'm willing to serve and you know it is very disproportionate for anybody who's been a parent of how much you're serving compared to what the kids do. But, yeah, trying to create the mindset that hey, if I'm not doing it, it means somebody else is doing it. And that's just one way that in your home you can inspire like, hey, to serve others, to do things, even if I don't want to do it for myself, I'm willing to do it because I don't want to put it on to someone else, for sure, start at home.

Mac: 1:01:40

That's the point.

Katie: 1:01:41

There are plenty of opportunities Every single day.

Mac: 1:01:48

Don't build a platform outside of the home where you're applauded and praised, and not serve humbly at home.

Katie: 1:01:52

Yeah, I actually think this practice is really important Because I think I bet so many people, and myself included, we've been listening to this think about the service project that takes a whole day or like kind of these outside them. But I think you're right, Like the home just has so many opportunities and the ordinary moments to actually live this out.

Mac: 1:02:09

Yeah, I mean, maybe that's the greatest audit you can do to figure out like your baseline of humility and service is like. What does it look like at home?

Josiah: 1:02:17

Yeah, yeah, it works in so many levels. I don't think there's any, any area in which God is asking us to increase our capacity. That doesn't. That wouldn't include or even further start with what it's happening in our own home and this is for your good.

Mac: 1:02:38

If you become a servant at home and grow, every minute is an opportunity to grow in love and you actually start living into that independence on the spirit, it will bless your family right Then moving out. So if it starts at home, maybe a second thing I would say is just be a blessing to those around you. I shared a little bit about our neighborhood. For a few years Josie and I led a kingdom community that centered on blessing our neighbors. We gathered about I don't know maybe 10 families who all live within like a half mile of us, and it started with us just getting to know our neighbors' names and then kind of going a step further and man, how much momentum.

Mac: 1:03:19

I remember one week the assignment was figure out a way to bless a neighbor and when we got back together everybody had a fun story to share like about how meaningful and impactful it all went well, like it went well. So if you just zoom out and go, okay, what does it look like to humbly serve the communities or spaces I'm in, whether it's the people on your street or maybe in your workplace, coworkers like you just start building that out. There's lots of opportunities to humbly serve the people around us.

Katie: 1:03:52

Yeah, and just to make that again, kind of build that into the ordinary of life.

Mac: 1:03:56

For sure, yeah, for sure.

Katie: 1:03:57

Yeah, a third one would just be to get plugged in and serve, Like, just do it. I think a church is a great place. It's certainly not the only place, but it is a great place. I know at Crosspoint we have tons of opportunities that you can come and serve, and I know a challenge for a lot of people is just time, like myself included. It's like okay, great, Well, I'm busy, and especially if you have young kids, like this can be a real challenge with young kids. But there are ways. You know there are ways. Alex and I got a sitter one Saturday of the summer and went and did a day with bridge builders and it was really awesome. I know the women's ministry here took a Saturday and went to clean apartments at Hope Street in Milwaukee and they included kids.

Katie: 1:04:39

That might be hard with, like a newborn, but they, you know they have little tasks that kids could do, like folding or putting things away. So I would just say, you know, we always say the church is the local expression of God's kingdom, and I think that's really true. Like it's not. It's not just a place to come sign up for service projects, but it's rather it's about being a family where we can live out these teachings together as a way of life. So if you want to prioritize service, find a way to serve.

Mac: 1:05:07

Yeah, and this is going to require you to get outside yourself. We live in a very consumeristic culture that has infiltrated the church. So many people orient a church of what is this church going to do for me? I'm not saying that you should completely ignore that. There is a sense in which the church or community you're a part of should be filling you up and feeding.

Mac: 1:05:26

You Got that, but I've got this theory I've been working on when it comes to spiritual formation, and what I've noticed is is that when people only orient to a church or church community about what they're receiving and how they're being filled up, or church community about what they're receiving and how they're being filled up, they very quickly reach a plateau where they stop growing, and I've noticed that the people who then go beyond that plateau is when they start giving themselves away. I honestly believe that I think that there's only so far you're gonna go in your spiritual journey, so long as your primary focus is on what you're receiving or consuming, and the next level of your spiritual growth is very much contingent upon learning to give your life away.

Josiah: 1:06:07

Yeah, which is going to involve being uncomfortable.

Mac: 1:06:11

Yep and embracing humility. Yeah. And self-sacrifice, and tangible acts of service and love right.

Josiah: 1:06:20

Yeah, and normalizing the resistance that you're going to feel when that happens, Like your self-preservation qualities inside are going to be telling you to not go outside your comfort zone, to not try something new, to not extend yourself in this way. So normalize that that's going to be attention and recognize that that, with discernment, is going to be an opportunity to grow and you'll increase your capacity and increase your ability to love and decrease hopefully decrease the tendency to want to serve yourself instead of others.

Mac: 1:06:56

All right. Well, let's land this plane. We talked about the importance of serving. Becoming a Tove church involves intentionally moving towards actual concrete service in love towards other people and of course this crashes into our ego and our own need to feel significant and powerful and like we matter. But resisting that is part of following in the way of Jesus.

Josiah: 1:07:25

Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Next time we will be concluding this series on church culture correct.

Katie: 1:07:35

Yeah, okay, yeah.

Mac: 1:07:37

I'm already lamenting the end of this series because I've had so much fun with it.

Josiah: 1:07:41

Yeah, it's been good, so we'll be concluding this series on church culture by focusing on the culmination of all of these Tov qualities, which is Christlikeness. See you next time.

Adam: 1:07:55

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.