The Toxin of Personality Driven Cultures

Mac: Well, welcome everyone. My name is Mac  

Katie: I'm Katie.

Josiah: I'm Josiah.

Mac: It is good to be with you guys, but not everybody's here. Um, normally Adam Johnson, our producer is sitting here with us and he's not here. and the reason why is because he gets married tomorrow.

Katie: he does

Josiah: Yes he does.

Mac: Pretty exciting, and aren't you, like, the best man?  

Josiah: I am the  

best man.

Mac: And, I'm officiating. Katie, you'll be there, but it just got me thinking, I feel like, at some  

point,

Katie, you said you've been in like, I don't know, 23 weddings or something?  

Katie: How  

Mac: feel about being in  

Katie: weddings?  

Oh, that's funny you ask. We were just talking about that before this.  

Josiah: Yeah?  

Katie: and Josiah. Yeah, definitely not 23, but it's been, [00:02:00] it's been a  

lot.

Mac: Like how many would you say?  

Katie: you.

say? Probably at least 10?

Mac: Wow.  

Katie: but it's always an honor, you  

know? It's really cool to Be in relationship with people that well, um, that they ask you to,  

to have that spot in their life. But there was  

a  

season when it was like  

kind of a lot all at once.

And that  

Mac: Cause all your friends were getting married and it  

Katie: Yeah.  

The traveling  

and fly here for a bachelorette party. And there's obviously a lot of money involved. And so there was, there was a season when it felt like a lot.  

Josiah: lot You have to buy a ton of dresses

Katie: And then it got to the point where I got  

married kind of at the tail end of that season. And then it was like, well, shoot, what do I,  

like?

I can only have so many bridesmaids. What  

do I do now for my wedding?  

You  

Mac: You  

Josiah: Yeah Yeah I've, probably  

been in, it's probably seven or eight, I think, between like my brothers and a few friends. Probably, probably seven or eight weddings.  

I will say though, that I don't  

recall ever going to a wedding that I wasn't doing

[00:03:00] something in it.

Mac: sure, because you're  

Katie: sure.

Really?

Josiah: doing music.

Katie: You've never

just showed up and ate and danced?  

I

Josiah: I don't remember a time. Maybe when I was  

Katie: a kid.  

Josiah: they got involved. I know. I don't even know? what It's like. Usually people ask, you know, invite me to the wedding  

and they're like, Hey, you should sing something. Or, you know,  

officiated a couple.  

So I just feel like, I've been a part of so many weddings.

And, uh, I've never really got  

to

just go without having any responsibilities.

Katie: Maybe someday.  

Josiah: Maybe  

someday.

Mac: Well, I, um, have been at at least one wedding with Katie, and , it gets a little ridiculous on the dance We'll just put it

way  

Katie: Depends on where you  

Josiah: little crazy. bad  

way wow,  

Mac: okay, we're doing burpees in a bridesmaid dress, like that  

Josiah: kind of thing

Mac: of a  

Josiah: burpees a dance move,  

Mac: No, but  

Katie: That is in my world. That is in my world.

Josiah: have  

Katie: It must have fit the song, whatever it was.

Josiah: was.  

Katie: I like to  

Mac: was. . hilarious.  

Katie: [00:04:00] Well, speaking of  

burpees, um, we're in a series right now  

on cultivating healthy church culture. Um,  

Cultivating healthy church cultures. If you didn't get a chance to listen to the previous episode, I would encourage you to go back and listen to it because we covered a lot of ground.

We kind of set the stage for the rest of the conversation, but big picture last episode, we named that every church has a  

culture, whether we realize it or not. And I would  

expand that to say every organization, every company, every. School, et cetera,

has a  

culture.  

Mac: That's a good expand.  

Katie: And while some churches have a healthy culture, we're seeing signs of widespread dysfunction in churches across the  

United States, and we're looking at how that dysfunction results  

from unhealthy or toxic cultures.

So last episode,  

Mac introduced this metaphor of a fruit tree as a way of talking about three subcultures within a church. We said how our fruit tree has branches that bear fruit. It has a trunk that feeds and supports the branches. And then it has roots that suck up nutrients from the soil. [00:05:00] And we said that the most important subculture is the soil, because if the soil isn't healthy, the tree won't be healthy and it won't be able to produce healthy fruit.

So in this episode and the next couple episodes, we want to name some of the toxins in the cultural soil that are contributing to unhealthy  

church cultures. Okay.

Mac: it. I'm with By the way, that, um, that metaphor of the branches, the trunk, the fruit, not mine. So that was from the book Pivot by Scott McKnight and his daughter, Laura.  

Katie: Good  

attribution. We wouldn't want to plagiarize.

Josiah: to plagiarize. Yes.  

Katie: all right. So let me take a stab. The first  

toxin I want to name today is being personality driven. So sometimes a church can build a culture around a single person, which I think typically tends to be the lead pastor, and this can create a really unhealthy culture.

Um, a lead pastor centric church that orbits around the pastor's personality and gifting. I think it's fair to say will not be a healthy church. And yeah, that's kind of commonplace. I think.  

Again, [00:06:00] as I started thinking about this, I could point to lots of

examples to churches I've been to or been familiar with that do orbit around the  

lead pastor. And I was  

just getting coffee with someone a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago maybe, um, who had recently moved to the area. She had her husband and kids were looking for a church. And, um, she said something like, you know, I I'm noticing something as I visit churches in the area. It seems like a lot of churches tend to be built around a person.

Like I  

just notice people talk about, Oh, I go to so and so's church, or I go to so and so's church. And that doesn't feel right to me. And I affirmed her. I see that too. Um, I see that. But sometimes even in our church where I think we try to be pretty intentional about, about not doing that. I think in some ways we're so accustomed, at least in this culture, um, to go, well, the person I see on stage speaking is kind of like the main actor here.

And That's what this is all about. I go to Max [00:07:00] Church, or even, I mean, Josiah, you're on the stage all the time, like, it's easy to just, to orient the church around who we're seeing, um,  

on stage. So, what would you guys add to that

Mac: well um, I would say it's not just about organizing there. There is that sense in which you're organizing the church around a single person. But I think what I would also add to that is, is, um, it seems like one of the primary things we're noticing is that person also, um,  

Creates. There's like a momentum around building that  

person's status as a  

result. They sort of then have celebrity status. So it's not just organizational control, it's also a sense of celebrity that within the church and that goes beyond it. So, Um, I know many of our listeners are readers, and so I just mentioned a book, um, by Caitlin, uh, Beattie. It's called Celebrities for Jesus, How Personas, Platforms, and Prophets are Hurting the

Church. And she just [00:08:00] shows that, uh, the celebrity ism, um, is a core feature of the contemporary evangelical movement. a celebrity culture is not just a  

minor feature, it's like

a main staple. within the evangelical

church, where all the attention  

revolves around a lead pastor, sort of what you're naming, but then the church ends up being built around this personality who has immense social power, often without the proximity of the people who are actually present.

And so in this book, and I've read it, she just does a  

great job outlining how pervasive this is, to  

your point, Katie, um, but also how insidious it is the church, instead of resisting and challenging the celebrity culture around us, has come to mimic it. And it's not good, nor does it produce a culture of goodness.

Katie: Yeah, I heard you say something I'm curious if you could expand on just a bit you named that they they have the status But without the proximity, what do you mean by that?  

[00:09:00]  

Josiah: That Yeah, she, she mentions that. I, I listen to her talk in a podcast and she mentions the, the, the impact without the, the influence without the, the proximity being like a, a sort of like a, a formula for creating a celebrity type of,

Katie: I think what I hear you guys saying is as the lead pastor you can't possibly be in close relationship with everyone in your church Yes,  

Mac: but I also think she's naming a cultural phenomena within evangelical Christianity that goes beyond just a local congregation.

Okay, think about  

some  

of the bigger names, even ones we've named that have experienced moral failures. They had a platform that drew thousands of people outside of their local church context, and people are tuning in every week, so they have all this social Um, prestige and power and influence to speak into people's lives that they've never even met before.

And

And, yet they're not proximate to those people, their locations, or whatever. And nobody can actually vouch for their character because you actually don't know this person.

you're

just listening to  

them, [00:10:00]  

And, and I, she also, um, I wasn't planning on saying this, but she does a great distinction in the book between being famous and, uh, a celebrity.

Those two are not the same. Um, there are plenty of godly people, and I remember when we had that moment, when we were talking about this a little bit with Cameron, uh, episodes ago, where he brought up, um, who's the guy that just eats liver? Liver  

Josiah: King.

yeah. Okay,  

Mac: someone who's clearly trying to build a platform for himself and to become a celebrity, a social influencer.

That's very different than someone who's, like, embodied a way of life that is so admirable. that they gain recognition from other And, uh, and we all could think of people like that. I mean, Martin Luther King Jr., for instance. Like, um, so, one primary staple of evangelicalism is, creating positions where a church revolves around a lead pastor, and their primary motive is to build a [00:11:00] platform for themselves where they sort of further their celebrity ism.

Make sense?

Josiah: Yeah.  

Katie: Make sense.

Mac: Let's talk for a little bit just about how he got here, because I think this might be helpful. Um, the catalyst for this becoming such a staple within evangelicalism was the church growth movement. I'll probably say more about this in future episodes. There were two missi uh, missiologists, uh, Donald McGavern and Peter Wagner, who sort of pioneered this, um, but they lo laid the foundation for what would become the seeker friendly or attractional church model, and the basic goal of that model was just what it sounds like, to attract as many people as possible to your church.

That's the goal of an attractional model of church ministry. Let's get as many people to come to us. And so the question was, well, how do you do that? And the basic strategy became, um, to have the best religious goods and services that spiritual consumers would like to consume. So, we [00:12:00] saw this in churches in the 80s and 90s, very, uh, focused on drawing seekers, attracting people.

And how did they do that? They had the best kids program, I mean, the best youth program, the best small groups, men's ministry, women's ministry, worship, all of that. Um, but central to the success of this model. In fact, I would argue that if this isn't in place, it doesn't even work as a charismatic and gifted teacher and preacher, right?

Sort of a sage on the stage to captivate and hold people's attention week after week. And so this became Arguably the key ingredient to the success of this entire model. Without it, it doesn't work. You need to have someone who's really gifted as a speaker and communicator that people are wanting to come listen to week after week.

Okay? So, follow this. We're going to keep going for a minute. At the center of the attractional model of ministry became talented lead pastors. Pastors who could wow  

crowds [00:13:00] and sort of captivate people's attention with their words. Now, what this does over time is that it fundamentally, it changes the job description of pastors.  

Okay. The job description changes for pastors from actually pastoring  

people, having proximity to people, caring for people, to now performing for people You see that? So there's this shift in a job description  

from pastoring people to performing  

for people, as well as then the qualification  

changes. the qualification for  

pastoring shifts from character to competency.

Okay? So, just think about this. Now, all of a sudden the job description becomes, we need people who have incredibly strong gifting from the stage, who are good at performing in front of crowds, who exude confidence and conviction. And then think about how that acts on the person, right? Now all of a sudden you get a job [00:14:00] and your primary job is to perform in front of people with a microphone with a  

spotlight on you. That is going to have a  

shaping influence on the person you're becoming, right? Moreover, we've actually created a job description then that.  

Is looking for people who love being  

in the spotlight and stay and

being that center of attention. And then we're all of a sudden shocked  

and surprised, for instance, when lo and

behold, Um, it comes out that  

actually this person has narcissistic tendencies or isn't good at relationships, treats people  

on, on poorly or whatever.

And I want to go,  

it shouldn't be a surprise. Because we actually changed the  

job description from pastoring people to performing for people, and, the primary qualification went from character to competency,  

particularly on the stage. Is this making sense?

Katie: Yeah, it almost feels like it's, it sounds more like a Taylor Swift concert and less like an early church.

Acts two, um, vision of the church where people were a group [00:15:00] of people. We're just all being the church together, trying to figure out like, how do we live life in the way of Jesus? Well, why don't you teach and maybe I'll host in my home and you make food and you care for people like we're all coming together and being the church.

That's very different from going, here's this one person that we're coming to see. Who might have some really great things that inspire me and, and help me grow in my faith in certain ways, but, um, but where it's hyper focused on the person who's speaking for God

Mac: Yes, and we'll get into this, I know, in our next episode, but at least let's circle back to something we talked about at length last time, which is that the culture that exists in a church is the sum total of everyone's participation and the relational patterns that exist.

It's not just determined by one person, it's the ongoing interaction between the congregation and church leadership, okay? So, um, I. It'd be easy to just blame, um, narcissistic lead pastors for this, but in fact, I want to name that, [00:16:00] um, the congregations are complicit in this. A pastor can't stand on a pedestal unless people put him there.

Right? There's no spotlight for the celebrity pastor apart from the adoring gaze of the congregation that shows up every week. So we're all participating. To the degree this is in place, everybody's contributing in some way.

Josiah: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. This really, this reminds me of a story in the Old Testament from 1 Samuel chapter 8 when Israel is requesting to have a king.

So, up until this point, God spoke and gave direction through a prophet or through a mouthpiece. And so, essentially, the whole nation was dependent on what God was going to say to them and for direction and for everything they needed. Um, but, but the prophet Samuel's getting older, and, Israel asks and says, We want a king instead.

We want, uh, we want some, someone to lead us. And God warned him that it would come at a great cost. There's this section of the scripture where it's basically the, [00:17:00] this king is gonna claim his rights. He's gonna, he's gonna require wealth and military and women and all these other things. It's listing all these things.

All the things that the leader's gonna take for his own. If you choose to put your trust in a king instead of me, and they responded. And I think it's,  

I'm just going to read it because I think it's so interesting. It's the people refuse to listen to Samuel. No, they  

said, we want a king over us. They then we will be like all the other nations with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight  

our battles.

It's interesting that up  

until this point, God was already doing those  

things for

for them.

But Israel wanted it. Yeah. a  

king to be able to do that someone they could be proud of. I hear so much pride in the statement. So why did they want a king? Well, they wanted the status, they wanted  

the protection and the stability. They wanted to be like all the other  

nations. And if you fast forward,  

the first king didn't do such a great job, right. [00:18:00] And he had he had major issues. And  

just about every other king in the line, including David had major issues, as well. So This was happening then. Obviously, this happens now. We're, we're human beings and we have this desire and this need like we, we all want this strong leader we can look to, right?

Someone to fight our battles for us. Someone we can be proud of and say, I go to so and so's church. Um, someone we can put our hope and our trust in and our faith in. And the issue, I don't know, the way I reflect on it is this issue of creating this personality driven culture isn't simply the leader's doing, right?

You just alluded to it. It's the entire church's responsibility of creating this, and it's human nature. So just as Israel created their leadership issues, I think we do the same in our unhealthy churches.

Katie: Yes, so what I hear you saying is this is nothing new

Josiah: No.  

Mac: Yeah, like, uh, God was to be Israel's king. They already [00:19:00] had a king, but  

they request a human king.

The church already has a king. His name is Jesus. But congregations still want a king that they can point to. And this puts just like a crushing, weight on Uh, leaders, and you named it throughout Israel's history, none of the earthly kings, ultimately succeeded. They were all crushed under the weight of trying to lead the people.

They failed.  

Josiah: Mm-Hmm.  

Mac: You know? And now we're seeing that, too, in our culture. When we put that much weight on a human leader, they're bound to fail us, and we keep seeing failure after failure. And it's not just this realm. You know, back in December, I preached on, um, we were doing that series on the women in Matthew's genealogy, and one of the women that's mentioned is Bathsheba.

She's not mentioned by name, it's She of Uriah. But I presented that I think the main reason why Matthew includes, um, She of Uriah is to highlight David's [00:20:00] failure as king. And to point to the fact that when you trust human kings, it will lead to that failure in order to prepare them for the one true king that won't let them down or them.  

After that sermon, I had someone come up to me, um, who is a politician. Like, she is a public figure. And she was just Sort of in tears and just saying, man, this is also happening in politics. People put so much weight and expectation and, and it's unbearable. Like, carry, we weren't designed to carry that  

of  

of weight

Katie: stuff

Yeah.  

Mac: So I'm just affirming and interacting with, I think, that, that point that this is nothing new.  

Katie: Yeah,  

So, okay, we might, we could have people that are  

listening and that would say, okay, like, I hear what you're  

saying.

Some churches are built around a personality and,  

I get that but like, why is it a bad  

thing exactly? Like if you've got a great pastor who gives sermons that are inspiring  

and point people to deeper [00:21:00] faithfulness, like what exactly is  

the problem here? Like, shouldn't we want good  

leaders? And I would just  

say yes.

Yes to that. Like we do want  

good leaders. We wouldn't disagree with that. and  

here's what else I would not disagree  

with. We're not saying that having a strong leader is a problem. Right? There's certain qualities that  

are necessary for good leadership and some people have that. And they just have a quality  

that  

makes people want to follow  

them. We're also not saying that leaders shouldn't become competent or  

gifted. I think it takes a lot to lead any group of people, especially in the church. And so we want leaders who have  

competencies and giftedness that lends itself to like setting a vision, getting people excited about living into that vision.

Um, we want people who kind of get us excited about like going in a, like they're going in a direction and we want to  

follow that. So we're not saying that those things are bad in and of themselves, but what we are saying is that building the church around a single person is unhealthy. And so, we want to flush out some of the  

reasons why.

Why? So why is that? What would you guys say[00:22:00]  

Mac: That's a good question. I hinted at, I think, one of them already, which is just that we become susceptible to unhealthy leaders when we adopt that paradigm. Um, so I shared how, you know, the job description for pastors, shifted with the attractional church model, where we go from Pastors pastoring people to now performing for people, and when we made that job description change, we basically end up attracting narcissists to lead our churches.

And this is where, uh, there's a guy named Chuck DeGroat. He wrote a book, um, When Narcissism Comes to Church. That's super helpful because, This is what he names in an entire book. He talks about how narcissism is being baptized as spiritual giftedness. Narcissism, narcissistic traits are often presented as strengths.

And, and so he actually names, and I kind of just want to walk through them because I think it would be helpful. Um, he names 10 characteristics of narcissistic [00:23:00] pastors, and I'll just say having experienced a leader like this and having heard stories of other people who have experienced leaders like this, it is so disorienting and so painful to be in proximity to a leader like this.

So here are 10 characteristics of a narcissistic pastor. Number one is that all decision making centers on them. So no significant or meaningful decisions can happen without their blessing or their presence, right? Everything has to be filtered through their, um, their yeses and their

Katie: No one else is empowered to make decisions. Correct. Yeah.  

Mac: Number two.

Impatience or lack of ability to listen to other people. They're unable to be present to others with curiosity, empathy, or compassion.  

Right? The compassion, empathy is non existent in their interactions with other  

human beings. Number three, delegating [00:24:00] without giving proper authority or with too many limits.

So they have zero ability to empower others in meaningful ways, which is probably a corollary, I think, to all decision making centers on them, number one. Um, number four, feelings of entitlement. They, often feel deserving of special treatment compared to those around them, okay? So, like Bill Hybels, for instance, had his own private entrance to the church that he alone could  

Katie: use Right

Right,  

Mac: But in smaller churches, it might be just like a bigger office, a company car, um, you know, an account set up at the, at the gas station where they can fill up their car on the church's dime. Like, all the special treatment that isn't given to other staff members. Number five, they feel threatened or intimidated by other staff.

So they're very, this is the weird thing, is they often exude confidence, and yet they're notoriously insecure. While they project this sense of confidence to those [00:25:00] around them, they're easily threatened  

by the talent of other  

people.

Number six, they, they're, um, needing to be the best and the brightest in the room.

Which again is probably a corollary to that one just above it. They always need to be the one who has the answer, the final say, the, the smartest, uh, the most intelligent. Um, there's inconsistency, inconsistency and impulsivity. What drives this is living in a constant state of ego inflation where they can act on whatever they are feeling in the moment. So instead of being like a disciplined person who lives by guiding principles, there's this inconsistency  

because they feel they have permission to act on whatever their impulses are.

Katie: and I would add, aren't worried about the consequences. Correct.  

Mac: Um, three more praising and then withdrawing. So they,  

the praise towards the  

people around, comes when those people do something that extends their ego or greaters [00:26:00] their sense of accomplishment.

Right. But if someone. It doesn't behave the way they want them to, doesn't show loyalty, then they  

withdraw. That relational presence and proximity. Intimidation of others. Sometimes intimidation comes directly with condescension or threats. Other times it's more indirect, um, through triangulation or isolating that person.

And then finally is faux nerbility. I think that's how you pronounce it. The word Faux, F A U X, for those who are listening. It actually originates from, uh, uh, the French meaning imitation or not  

sincere. And so while they might sound or appear vulnerable at times, it's often a  

very calculated vulnerability rooted in  

things from the past rather than showing up as a present mess, which is what true  

vulnerability is about.

Katie: about practiced  

Mac: So all the vulnerability is, is  

sort of,

uh. Well, it's it's very presented and packaged in a  

Katie: [00:27:00] of all manufactured  

Mac: vulnerability. So again, if you put all this together, it's like from the stage They are gifted charismatic and engaging but man behind closed doors. They are manipulative abusive and conniving They choose power over love control over the cross and being a leader over ever being led

Katie: Man. That's fascinating. Um, yeah, that, that last point was really interesting because you're Right,  

I think within Christian circles, we do, we know God wants us to be vulnerable. We admit we're all sinners. We admit we've all made mistakes, but I do think that's a really interesting distinction. If you're being vulnerable only with things that you've already arrived on, only with, only with things that have happened in the past, you're presenting this image as if you have it all together, which seems like a critical piece of  

Mac: Right, and because we know one of the values, um, in our culture right now is authenticity.

Right?

It gives

this appearance of authenticity, but in fact, it's not authentic at all. I even see this not [00:28:00] necessarily with narcissistic pastors, but it just requires vulnerability to be honest about things that are messy. And so I've led discipleship groups, for instance, where people are asked to bring a God moment to the table, something they sense God's at  

work on in their life.

And they, instead of everybody else kind of bringing like, ah, this is the moment, it's kind of a mess, let's process it together.  

But they kind of bring something that's already been.

Katie: this way, which is a  

Mac: conclusion and it's like, Ah, see how this like is a deterrent  

against me showing up with vulnerability and humility because I don't have it all figured  

out.

out

Josiah: Yeah, yeah, if the if the, act of being vulnerable just um, increases. Your status within the group you're presenting it to it's probably not real

Katie: Yeah,

Josiah: right?

Because it's it's curated to help To help sort of sort of bolster this this this view of you that you're this Perception that you're hoping people have of you. It's not necessarily vulnerability for  

the sake of connecting with people [00:29:00]  

Mac: The other thing that I, yeah, and the other thing I want, we were talking about proxy, uh, proximity.

Right? Um, and how that variable  

is at play with celebrity ism. Notice that those ten characteristics that Chuck outlines  

for us, can't be  

experienced or discerned without  

proximity. They're all things that you would experience more behind closed doors or in daily  

interactions than you, you you would never experience these things from a stage,  

right?

And so this just highlights part of the problem is, is we put these people on a pedestal and they have maybe 20, 30, 000 listeners every  

week,  

but here all are all these characteristics, 10 of them, and there are more. Um, that fill out a narcissistic personality, none of which can be discerned when you're downloading the podcast or the sermon from the previous week.

You just don't

Katie: Yeah,

Josiah: Yeah. and I just see that, I just see this as such the, as such a perpetuating problem because [00:30:00] I would, I would dare say that most narcissistic pastors are not there thinking I'm a tool and I just really want to wreck a bunch of people's lives. Like no one's thinking that they're there, they are there with the intention and the belief that they are what's best for the church.

So is the problem them? Well, sure. It's part of it, but it just goes to show how much of the, of the culture, the job description change, the expectations from congregations and. You know, communities at large of what a pastor and what a church is. All of that shifting has created this, this perfect, perfect soil for continuing to produce narcissistic leaders.

Mac: yeah, The toxin is there, um, due to a variety of variables. Yeah. yeah.

Katie: And people who come, yeah, people who come to church, I think, unfortunately, can be I think a lot of [00:31:00] people who come to church are perhaps like in a rough spot or, um, they're seeking, they want someone who can kind of definitively help provide guidance and help them, you know,  

connect to God in their life.

And so I just, I could see how being in a church especially can make us extra susceptible to that type of leader, unfortunately.

Mac: unfortunately Well, that's my first answer. I mean, you, you asked the question, why might this be problematic? And, um, I've at least submitted to you guys and to our listeners that we become susceptible to unhealthy leaders.

Is there, are there any other problems that you would want to share?  

Josiah: Yeah. I think even if, even if, let's just say the, the leader is healthy and they're not, they're not a narcissistic leader.

Um, I don't think it's necessarily healthy. It's not healthy for the congregation to do this to their, their pastor.  

So, it's not healthy for the  

congregation to revolve around one person.  

[00:32:00] Um, and I think that, just as we were sort of alluding  

to we as a congregation  

can take our own pride and could probably take a leader that is well meaning and decent character, um, capable of taking someone like that  

who is talented and sort of creating a  

culture that revolves around their gift and personality.  

And what ends up happening is that that leader  

can't perform anymore. Everything falls apart. The whole system is built around one person being able to perform perfectly. And not only is that going to be bad, bad, bad for the leader, but it's bad for the congregation because now, now, uh, it's not a conglomerate of mutuality where we all express our gifts and make something beautiful and make up the whole body.

Really, a congregation is, in a community, is really built around a very few set of gifts. How many people around you are looking around with gifts that don't have an area to express  

it?  

Katie: a good point.

I was going to say, I think it, [00:33:00] yeah, it deprives the people in the church of actually meaningfully participating. When  

you  

think that, oh, well, I have to be like that in order to  

do something meaningful here at this church. All I  

do is I kind of show up and listen and I don't know, maybe make coffee once in a while or something.

It, it deprives people from feeling like they are a part and have some responsibility and  

ownership in being the

Josiah: and ownership in being in church.

Yeah, they're not, they're not  

taking ownership of, um, the work God's doing in our community, or at least like their, their own responsibility in that. They're sort of taking pride in being able to support  

the pastor's  

vision. Yeah. And I think that's an important  

distinction.  

Katie: hmm.

Mac: Kaitlyn Beatty, I just grabbed this quote and she says, the institution, or we'd say the church's identity becomes enmeshed with the pastors.

His public persona serves to draw fame and renowned to the church. Having a celebrity pastor is seen as benefiting the church. All the better. If you can get actual celebrities to start attending.  

Katie: just  

Mac: Justin Bieber would just

Katie: have

so many documentaries through [00:34:00] my mind right now that I've watched in the past year. Um, but  

Mac: Um, but yeah, dude, I mean, you're naming something really important, which is, is it's not healthy for the congregation.

I mean, if the leader starts going in a poor direction, has the influence to take people with them, that's not good. You know, if the leader has a moral failure and needs to be terminated and everything's built around them, then what, I mean, we, most, a lot of people listen to the rise and fall of Mars Hill.

I mean, they close their doors. A church of thousands of people, when Mark Driscoll, you know, blew it, um, they literally closed their doors. If the leader moves on and no one else has been equipped to lead in their place, like retirement or whatever, um, what does the church do if it's just built around this one

Katie: person? Right. It's not only unhealthy while they're there, but it's literally unsustainable if they  

Mac: Yeah.

it just creates a very vulnerable, a very vulnerable congregation. And I would argue, then there's, when there's that enmeshment and sort of like the church's identity has been fused with the pastor, the [00:35:00] pastor isn't really even able to lead very well. Uh, so for instance, I was just on a coaching call this morning, and there was a, a pastor who in his forties had a near death  

experience. And now he's leading a new congregation. And he said, after  

that near death experience, I'm pastoring totally  

differently. You'll tell  

us more about that. In what ways? He said, before it would have felt like  

this church and me are  

intertwined. Now I realize I could drop dead at any moment.  

And it's like, so I'm not this church,  

I'm a pastor to this church, and now I'm able to say things that otherwise I wouldn't be able to say because I would have felt it as a threat, or,  

you know, what if this person doesn't like me? It's very clear that this, this is the church, and this is me, and they aren't the same  

thing.

Katie: Yeah.

Josiah: yeah. And if I'm gone Can life continue?

Mac: Yeah. And to your point, you guys, around like, hey, and if everything's depending on this other, then other people aren't being empowered. [00:36:00] Well, this is one of those keys is if you can begin making decisions where other people genuinely are contributing and having buy in, then if something does happen, it was their decision that they made.

So just think about this for a moment. If let's say we have a decision on our leadership team and the leadership team is just kind of going along with my choice and then I get hit by a beer truck on the way home and now I'm not here anymore, they're stuck with the decision I made. And now it's up to them whether they want to continue my choices or not. Now imagine if you have a team of people who are making that decision together, where there's a process for everybody to give voice, and then at the end of it it's like, this is OUR decision. And then I get hit by a beer truck. Well now it's not, hey, what do we do with Mac's choice? It's, how do we continue our choice?

See the  

difference?

Josiah: Yeah. cuz you're you're discerning collectively.

It's not max. It's not max discernment It's [00:37:00] our discernment of what the what the spirit is leading us

Katie: Yeah. And responsibility and accountability is diffused too, if something goes wrong. So I hear you guys saying, all right, even if the leader is healthy a personality centric church is not healthy for the congregation.

And I  

would add that it's also not healthy for the leader. So Mac, You touched on this a little earlier. It's not, it's just not healthy for a leader to have the congregation revolve around them. I watched the Britney Spears documentary a couple months ago

ago.

and, um, I

Mac: that? I don't felt like

it.  

Katie: like it. It probably just popped up.

I don't watch a lot of TV.  

So I was like, well, you know, I grew up in the Britney Spears era. So like, this will be interesting, but it was actually really sad.  

And, um, you just saw kind  

of all the pressure that was put on her and she was really young and how the media treated her. And so it struck me like how the pressure and the weight  

and the expectations of being [00:38:00] so famous, especially at such a  

young age really did bad, bad work for her.

It really did.  

And I lived in  

LA, the LA area when I went to law school. And so I saw all around me was Like  

people trying to make it big. Like everyone's trying to catch their big break. The  

Mac: break.  

Where'd you go to  

Katie: and the Pepperdine.

Mac: Yeah, uh, there was a celebrity that walked around the track.  

Katie: Pamela

Mac: Yeah, you were with Pamela

Anderson Uh  

Josiah: sure.  

Katie: I wasn't friends with her. I've never talked to her, but yeah, we can say that. You know what other  

celebrity went to Pepperdine?  

Do you guys remember the Rod  

Blagojevich stuff?  

Oh, he was like a super  

corrupt politician in the Chicago area. Anyways, he went to Pepperdine  

Law. Um, other claim to fame.

Mac: cropped, you  

Katie: Anyways, um, being out there, you just saw everyone trying to make it. So it's like everyone wants that celebrity status, but then when you see it, and actually I watched the Taylor Swift documentary too, and she, Um, alluded to like a point in her career when she realized that this, the  

celebrity status was acting on  

[00:39:00] her in some, in some ways that did bad work.

And she  

made some intentional choices to kind of push against that and get healthy and, um, and just kind of acknowledge some of the expectations that were being placed on her and some decisions about what she wanted to. Um, do and what she didn't want to do based on that. So my point being, I would say kind of the same thing for pastors.

Like, I don't care how healthy of a person you are coming into a job. If you're put in a position where you're on stage every week, having hundreds or even thousands or tens of thousands of people listening to you. If you're the person who makes every decision, who calls the shots, who's basically seen as the face of a church, it might feel good at first, but over time it will not be good for your  

soul. Like having that, that much attention and that much weight, it's just,  

it can't be good,

Mac: to your point, one of you said, I think it was you, Josiah, who said, like, people probably didn't come in with, like, nefarious motivations.

In fact, I suspect that many of these [00:40:00] pastors came in with a great character. But see, the problem is, is that the culture acts on and shapes the pastor's character over time. In other words, that culture is acting on the pastor. And so, um. Man, like, the, there's a dynamic of fandom that is not good, right? If you're always in the spotlight, it begins to act on that pastor, and before you know it, you don't know who you are apart from that spotlight, apart from that platform.

Which is why I think it's really good for, pastors to intentionally find spaces of obscurity. Where they're not in the spotlight, where they know.

who they are apart from their church, or the platform, or the stage, or the microphone.  

Josiah: You know, when I think about this, I think about in the Garden of Eden, that the temptation to take the apple was like, you know, obviously there was a lie. You will not surely die. Right? And he says, you will be like God. Your eyes will be opened. I think [00:41:00] that I think that the leadership in this capacity is the desire to try to be like God.

And there's a line. Between when we leave sort of our, our human limitations and try to be more. And when we, and when we're, we're forced to be more, or try to be more, um, it, we are, we aren't designed for it. We're designed to be humans who bear God's image, but we have limits. We are designed with limits, and all of this, all of these narcissistic tendencies really have, have, they really have to do with the  

fact that I'm, I end here and you, end here, but I'm gonna cross over that boundary.

I'm gonna try to be more than I actually am more than human to try to be a leader. That's, that's larger than life.  

and anytime someone does that it will crush them. People are not designed for that it will take a, an active amount of rejecting that status in [00:42:00] order to survive.

Mac: Uh, dude, I think that's such an insightful word.

Um, that you have to intentionally embrace and choose to live within those confines of your limitations.

Josiah: Yeah, I even think, I mean, you were leading, you were reading through the list of narcissistic behaviors. I'm not  

saying I have those, but there are definitely a handful of those you read that  

I can have even my own process of  

thinking like I sense the temptation  

to do

Mac: Mm hmm. Mm

Josiah: I can sense times when I was either immature or in a compromised place where it would have been easier to, I'm not going to delegate something in leadership, like, or I'm going to just do this myself.

I don't want to do it this way. It's more difficult to involve other people to sit and listen instead of just tell them what what to do. Like, I think we can, we can, some of us could even sense that the draw in any sort of leadership position within, or maybe just in family. I don't want to be a narcissistic dad.

Mac: For sure. And  

this is why there's got to be a sense of [00:43:00] humility because, um, you know, narcissism is sort of a spectrum. We all have some of those characteristics or qualities, but the vast majority of us don't have the power to actually act that way without consequence. And that's what the spotlight does, and it's not, it doesn't happen in an instant. If it did, most people would reject  

it.  

But see, what happens is, is it's, it's so insidious, and it's like, it's, it's, it's like the frog in the kettle. It doesn't just happen overnight, but  

it gradually acts on the pastor. And before they know it, they're spending more time in the spotlight than actually serving people, even though if you ask them at the very beginning, why are you getting into this?

It would be to serve  

Josiah: people.

Yeah, convinced that what they're doing is actually what is needed.

Mac: Yes.  

Katie: So one thing you said, Josiah, that I really liked was that you have to actively work against  

kind of being sucked up into this.

If you, especially if you are that person who's, you know, front and center a lot and maybe [00:44:00] institutionally within the structure, the hierarchical structure, like you are kind of high up, like the more you're in that position, the more you're going to have to really intentionally and proactively embrace your limits, seek solitude, seek obscurity, like all of those things.

So how. How do we do that? I mean, many of us aren't lead pastors, but  

how do we as a church, um, shift away from being like hyper focused on one person? How do we shift away from being, having a personality driven culture? do you guys say  

Mac: Hmm. Well, the first thing I would say is, uh, to prioritize character over competency. You know?

Um, we need to, once again, regain. this conviction that character matters more than anything else. Um, now I'm not  

saying, and Katie you gave this caveat, that competency doesn't matter. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. But what I would say is that character matters more. And I [00:45:00] think we need to regain this deep conviction that character will have a more lasting impact on others than giftedness or skill ever will.

Um, that who a person is matters more than what they can do. When you're in leadership, um, Scott and Laura put it this way in their book, they said, character matters more than culture, character matters more than strategy, it is character that determines the very substance of where we're headed. It isn't just what we do, but who we are, it all comes down to character.

And again, in talking about how that job description and that qualification change happened, Um, how this has been reversed, I think, it's also been confused in the church. So maybe to take this one step further, I think we have to be careful not to equate ability with character because they're not the same thing, right?

I think in, in many churches, we sort of mistaken  

ability with character and when Ability replaces [00:46:00] character, we get toxicity in the boardroom and the pulpit, and those toxicities eventually corrupt the entire culture. So, I remember this quote by Diane Langberg, who wrote a great book on power in the Church, and she said, Never assume  

that someone who is gifted verbally and has theological knowledge is spiritually wise and mature. See what I'm saying? So, we need to, we need to put a premium  

on character. We can no longer prioritize  

competency over character. But it's also important that we don't confuse  

gifting. Or ability with character. Those are not the same thing. Does that make sense?

Josiah: Yeah, are you  

Katie: it does. and yet, well, I was just gonna say, And yet it feels like we do that a lot. Yeah.  

Mac: Well, let me give you an example of just, just practically. I have a friend who's a pastor and, um, and  

when he took the the job at the church he's currently at. This church used, um, the top, like, search firm for churches today, Vanderblumen.  

And so if a church has [00:47:00] lots of money and they have a key position they need to fill, you can actually hire them to come in.

And sort of write the job description and the candidate profile and run that search for you, find the candidate and then sort of bring you in at the final stage of interviewing. So that's how he, Vanderbloom, oversaw the search that eventually  

led him to joining this church. So we were  

talking about this very thing one time over coffee about how character, it seems to be on the back burner when it should really  

be front and center. And he told  

me that in the entire  

process from start to  

finish of being interviewed for this pastoral  

position. There wasn't a  

single question that was  

asked that assessed his character.  

It was all theological  

and rooted in competency and experience. Nothing, not a single question was about who that person is as a person.

That's terrifying to me.

Katie: Yeah, [00:48:00] I can say I've been in many interviews on both sides of the table that are the same. Um, granted not in a church setting, but it feels like especially in a church, we should care a lot about character, right? Like that's what Jesus is all about, is building our character as disciples. So I hear that and I see it and it makes me wonder, well, man, I certainly see how we've um, prioritized competency over character.

And it's going to unpack how we got there.

Josiah: You said something that's, uh, it's making me think. You're, you're sort of naming, correct, correct me if I'm wrong, you're naming scripture fluency as a mark of an ability and competency, not necessarily a mark of character.

Mac: Yes, that is what I'm saying. I mean,

Josiah: Like, it doesn't mean, outworking of good character, that you care about being disciplined and studying and learning and growing, um, In, in all of that, but I just think it's an interesting distinction that the, the, the scripture fluency would be, [00:49:00] uh, an ability to, to quote that it's not necessarily the mark of character.

Mac: Yeah. I mean, I had, uh, two professors in college who went to Marquette for their doctoral program. And we'd regularly get lunch together, and they would tell me  

about the professors they had who did not believe that Jesus died and rose again.

Like, they, they were not Christians. But man, did they know the scriptures inside and out. And they learned more from those professors than probably any other professors because their beliefs were under scrutiny. So they actually had to like, when they were writing things, you know, participating in the classroom, there was a sense of, like, greater accountability because there was an alignment between the two of them So Just think about that. You have someone teaching, uh, theology at a doctorate level, and they're not following Jesus. So why would we equate those two that you can know the Bible? Even Scripture says this, like, Satan knows the Bible inside and out, quotes [00:50:00] it to Jesus,  

Josiah: Yeah, and of course we're not saying there's no use for it.

We're simply just stating that. Um, maybe we've, these are just another one, it's another one of those metrics that we've used to assess a pastor's quote unquote character. But, um, when it comes to their personal life and their daily walk with Jesus, um, how well they know their theology inside and out isn't necessarily the mark of character that, that we're looking for. Or, or need, need to be  

looking for, Yeah,  

Katie: it. Yeah. And we just want to be clear that they're different things. Both important, but different. Yeah, so Mac, I hear you  

saying prioritizing character over competency is  

one way that we can help guard against the church being personality driven. Another one I would name that we've have, we've stated earlier in the episode is develop a team model of leadership. So we did an entire episode on this in our value series. Um, I'm going to go back and listen to that. But the basic idea is that we lead by sharing [00:51:00] power. Decisions are for the most part made by teams of people, not just by one person.

Not to say there aren't ever times when one person has to make a decision, but rather we have a culture that values many voices speaking into important  

matters and we value  

Those many voices. And granted, like it does, I think it does make it more difficult at times to make decisions because it requires more time,  

more conversation, et cetera, et cetera, But you almost always end up with a better outcome. One re that reflects the diverse perspectives of your congregation. And um, again, one where like ownership and responsibility and accountability  

is shared by a group of people because they've all had an opportunity to speak into the direction the church is heading.  

Mac: would second that also by naming, like this is The biblical model that we see in the New Testament. You know Caitlyn Beatie in her book, celebrities for Jesus, she says, A plurality of leadership and divisions of power are core to the New Testament vision of the church.

In a megachurch where the pastor is the [00:52:00] visionary founder, and CEO all in one, it's hard to know how much elders can really do. An elder board often gives the appearance of accountability while in practice rubber stamping the leader's agenda.

Josiah: Hmm.  

Mac: So it's to say that this isn't just like, oh, this is a good idea.

I think you're hard pressed to look at the New Testament and go, oh yeah, this is how the New Testament envisions church leadership. One person sort of being the visionary person, the founder, the CEO, with a group of elders who are rubber stamping their decision. That's just not what we see.

Josiah: Yeah, Mac, I'd be curious.

I've heard you talk about it  

before, but your experience of wanting, you know, having having vision for a team model of leadership, how much work does it take to make sure that that Continues to happen.

It  

Mac: a lot of work. It takes a lot of  

Josiah: work Like I'm, I'm, I'm guessing and I, okay. Just to expound, you have mentioned it before, [00:53:00] um, and from what I've gathered, it's almost seems like there's this stream of movement that's trying to like, get you to make decisions and you have to actively resist it.  

Mac: Yeah, I think one. I don't know if I should be doing this or not. So just stream of consciousness here. But, uh,

Josiah: Adam can cut it if we  

need it. Yeah. Yeah.  

Mac: I think I think one thing that helps me not over function and take responsibility. And I don't do this perfectly. There probably are times where I've driven a decision and, um, and then the group is like catching up.

Right?  

But I think maybe a metaphor that's helped me is to think about myself in the boardroom as a consultant.  

Rather than the person who's, like, calling the shots, if you're a good consultant, you're coming into a church and empowering that church to make decisions as you guide them and speaking to them with your expertise or your, you know, whatever you bring to the table.

And I find that I'm like doing  

my best when I'm sort of, um. pivoting it [00:54:00] out of that. Doesn't mean I abrogate my voice or don't exercise my voice. In that sense, I probably have a little bit more, um, say so than a consultant, but that helps me at least knowing my personality  

kind of pump the brakes where I'd normally be tempted to, um, um, push really  

hard. I think one of the telltale signs of whether you're doing this or not is whether But at  

least sometimes you're not getting your way. A decision goes differently than you wanted it to go or  

thought it should go. The final thing I'll say, and I've mentioned this before in previous episodes, is this requires a high degree  

of relational maturity among the team. You need people who can step into that space  

with self differentiation, um, and that means not overpowering and dominating others, but also, and I'm learning this,  

Not shrinking back. and saying things you really  

need to say that's just as detrimental to a team of people, um, than the domineering person.

So, anyways, [00:55:00] thoughts off the cuff.

Josiah: Yeah, I like that. I mean, if the job of the, leadership within church is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, then the person at the top should be doing the most equipping, and maybe, like, empowering others to be doing the work, and not trying to do all the work themselves.

Mac: and I want to say to our listeners, I'm not doing this perfectly. Um,

I, I have  

I  

do. I have a lot of, I'm always trying to grow into this and have a lot of people that I get coaching from to help me continue to hopefully do this decently well

Josiah: Yeah, I like that. Another way, um, which is a little bit on the line of that.

So if we're developing a team model of leadership, we also need to be discipling people. like everyone who, who comes to church to participate meaningfully, right? The, the church is the sum total of everyone's participation, not just the work of the leader. If we're [00:56:00] trying not to be a personality driven culture.

Um, so yeah, if we want to, decenter our community from revolving around one person, well then the process is going to involve, you need a discipleship pipeline that, that develops people and allows them to contribute meaningfully. Um, you know, and this is, I would assume, that every church on the planet has work to do in this.

Especially in our western, very individualistic culture. The stream, as I was talking about,  

is, in our culture is, Outside of church is constantly  

pushing towards what works best for you and wanting to consume and um, it will take active work within a church to make sure that there are pipelines and ways that people can contribute meaningfully with and express their gift and make our church better.

Mac: Yeah, it's  

Katie: yeah, and it's so interesting to me thinking about this like technology age that we're in where we have so much information at our  

[00:57:00] fingertips. And I could never walk foot in a church building and  

listen to like different pastors and podcasts and books on tape. Like there's so much out  

there that I could listen to and think that I'm. you know, growing spiritually, but if I'm not in an actual building, I'm not going to be  

discipled. So I think that's such a  

critical piece of this, right? Like me as the person wanting to walk with Christ and wanting people around me to help guide me in that. It's my responsibility to be a part of a church where I can be discipled in the context of relationship.

That's different from consuming.  

Even though sometimes I feel like when I'm listening to podcasts, it's like, Oh yeah, that's great. Like I'm learning things and those are great insights. And I can take some of it. And you know, it's like, well, how am I actually living my life? How am I working this out? And I think that has to be done in the context of a church.

Josiah: yeah yeah, we do work in our, in our leadership intensives, a yearlong discipleship program that, that, that we do, we do work having to sort of deconstruct this idea, a model that we've [00:58:00] had for discipleship in the past. So, discipleship is not consuming sermons, like, that is, like, learning, of course is, and consuming information, of course, is part of it, but, discipleship is a lot more expansive than that.

It involves being relationally connected to the people around you, and, uh, and discerning together, and, ultimately discovering what it looks like for you to meaningfully contribute to the community around you, instead of just sitting back and, and consuming.  

Mac: Yep. Downloading information doesn't lead to transformation. Now there's a sense in which you can't act on what you don't know, so information is valuable. But if you look at how Jesus discipled the disciples, there was teaching. He provided them with information and frameworks and challenged some of their worldview, and he taught on the kingdom. So there was information, but it immediately led to practice.

Go practice this. Go try this. And then there's usually failure. They usually weren't able [00:59:00] to do it and they'd come back and have a feedback loop, some reflection to go, how did that go? And then we'll keep going. And you need a community. You sitting there on your couch listening to a sermon isn't going to be the same as being part of a community where you're learning.

acting and reflecting as a group  

of people, which is part of the reason why this is called, this podcast is called Praxis, because it's all about practicing the way  

of Jesus together as a community. So what a perfect transition to go, okay,  

How can we give our listeners some  

concrete practices, um, in light of this?

And I know much of what we've  

been talking about has sort of centered on leaders and that revolving around  

leaders, but I'll remind  

people of our systems thinking to go this doesn't happen without  

everyone's sort of complicit. maybe even passive cooperation. So what are some things that our listeners can do  

to, you know, join us in pushing back against this toxin in the soil that does not  

produce [01:00:00] goodness or good fruit, and I'll just start by naming the first one because you guys already name it, but just do a language  

audit, you know, Katie, you mentioned so many people refer to a church as the lead pastor's church.

I just want to say stop doing, knock it off. Just don't do that. Um, that's not how the Bible talks about New Testament churches. It's usually based on location. The church in Ephesus, the church in Corinth or whatever. In fact, in Corinthians, when they tried to build the church around a person, some saying, I'm of Peter, others, I'm of a policy.

Paul had some harsh  

words  

for them.

for

Josiah: Yeah,

Mac: Right? So the church doesn't belong to your lead pastor. It belongs to Jesus. Um, I don't know how to refer to it. If you belong to Crosspoint, I go to Crosspoint. That's the church that I participate in and I'm discipled in, right? But please don't refer to it as my church or any other staff member's church because it doesn't belong to me.

Katie: Yeah, Yeah, that's a good one. Uh, a second practice I [01:01:00] would name is learn to hear from God through multiple voices. Okay. So we've talked about how having like this. church that's built around one pastor, um, can easily kind of give the impression that that person like speaks for God. Like they have the spiritual authority in the church and they're the only person that can speak God's voice in my life.

And that's, There's not only one person, you know, that gets to that, that gets that spiritual authority. So, um, this is important. I grew up, I think hearing God's voice primarily just through maybe one person, like the lead pastor at our church. And then I went to college and went to another church  

and then law school and went to another church.

And, um, I didn't have access to, you know, podcasts like we do now. And so, the people that I heard God's voice through had lots of  

good things to say, but they were all kind of similar demographic life experience,  

et cetera, et cetera. Like, you know, older males in fifties or sixties kind of grew  

up in a similar. [01:02:00] Context. And so it wasn't until my thirties that I really started expanding my circle of who I listen to, especially on spiritual matters. Like I  

started to listening to podcasts and sermons and reading books by women, which was really good because I'm a woman. And so I was like, Oh, well, this adds  

something to. to  

my understanding of who God is  

and, um, how I, how he could be at work in my life  

and people in other countries, um, people who live in this country, but have had a different upbringing.  

There's just, there's so many different voices out there. Everyone's got a  

different life experience and a different journey.

And. The cool thing about God is that he created and wired all of us, and he knows our journey, and he knows our context. And he, I think, meets us there and speaks to us within our context. And so everyone is going to bring something different to the table. And so we can benefit from that. Like we can benefit by expanding who we listen to.

When we're trying to learn about the  

things of God,  

Mac: Yeah. this is why we're committed to a team model of preaching, because preaching [01:03:00] is God's truth through a personality, and we believe there are multiple personalities that are going to equip and give our church a well rounded hearing and responding of God's Word, right?

But maybe practically, that means that, don't just come when your favorite preacher  

up.  

Katie: Yeah.  

Mac: It shouldn't matter who's preaching, just come with an openness and a receptivity to how might God speak to me today through whoever is up, right? And I say that knowing I'm not everybody's favorite. I know some people who definitely prefer Cameron speaking over mine.

Great! But, um, still come when I preach, You know? or if you think, hey, I like Mac the best. I don't care. Come when others are speaking because it's aboutthis is an opportunity for you to very openly and humbly listen for the voice of God at work in your life and the life of our  

Katie: Mm hmm.

Josiah: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Another practice would be just to, uh, consider your own participation.

What, what does it look like for you [01:04:00] to participate within this community? I think of a, maybe just start by, uh, attending the entire  

service.

I know

Katie: you mean by that Josiah.  

Mac: If

Josiah: we are, if we are picking and choose who we're, Who are our preachers are some I, I know that there, it's tempting to take it even a step further and be like, Oh, I don't like that part of the service.

I'll show up late, or I don't want to stay late because I don't necessarily want to talk to people at the end, consider what it would look like to participate in the entire thing that maybe arrive a little early and stay late. That doesn't require very much at all. And, ask the Holy Spirit how, how he might  

be inviting you to contribute.

Mac: way to  

Josiah: And I, I would imagine that you might, you might see, more areas than you are aware of when you  

only attend sporadically or, um, or, uh, you know,  

parceled.  

Mac: I often feel bad for you guys during the first  

Katie: I know that's what I  

was

Mac: cause I'm standing off and  

Katie: there's two [01:05:00] people here today.  

Mac: know but it is, it's like if you show up early and prioritize relational connection and are present for the entire, um, the entire service and stay a little bit after it just opens up.

opportunities to be part of what God's doing rather than again treating as like okay I'm gonna just gonna attend for this little snippet that I like and then and then I'm out as if oh I got my needs met

Josiah: Yeah, and I'm not even  

trying to say, this isn't a rant about if you show up late to worship, this is, it's, it's more about, Um, we talked earlier, there's this flow, our whole culture is trying to push towards things that are unhealthy in church and it takes active work to say, no, I'm not going to just go with the flow of what's happening or what I normally would  

want in other areas. We're saying that being a part of a church community, we all want to have a healthy culture and all of us, it's going to take all of us to, to have one. And if you find [01:06:00] yourself  

with limited participation, sitting on the  

outside. There may be some very small steps you, you could do to say, no, I want to be a part of it too.

And it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, serving three times a week and, and being here all the time. Just simply saying, I want to be a part of that. And I want to, I'm, I'm going to take ownership of what it looks like for this to be a healthy community.

Mac: That's solid. All right, guys Well, big picture, this celebrity ism that's in the culture is truly a, a toxin in the soil of the American church.

Building the church around a single person does not lead to a healthy church or a healthy church culture. The church is the sum total of everyone's participation and healthy churches learn how to equip and empower all those who wish to contribute and to participate.  

Josiah: Well, thanks for joining us today. We really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Next time we are  

going to take some time and name a second toxin in the American church soil and how to pivot [01:07:00] toward greater  

health as a church. We hope you continue to join us

Katie: Praxis is  

recorded and produced at Crosspoint  

Community Church.  

You can find out more about the show and ourChurch@crosspointwi.com.

If you have any questions, comments, or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an  

email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving your review, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

‍