5 Reasons Why Boundaries Are Important

Mac: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Today we decided to put together a bonus episode. We've been in this series on emotional maturity and how it's essential to discipleship, and in our last recording we talked about boundaries. Well, today we wanted to continue that conversation by talking with Teri Koshnik. She's a long-term member of our church community and a therapist, so Teri pretty much helps people establish and maintain healthy boundaries for a living. She's got a mountain of expertise and insight, and she also happens to be your mom, katie she does. So let's start with that. What was it like having your mom on the podcast?

‍Katie: 0:48

It was great, it was a lot of fun. It kind of felt like a normal kitchen table conversation for my childhood. If I'm being honest yeah, I'm just talking about this stuff a lot. I remember my mom. I'll mention this, but I remember her handing out the boundaries book by Henry and Townsend to everyone and this was kind of the era I breathed as a kid, so it was really fun to dig into it in a different format and hear more about how it ties into her practice, and to have you be part of the conversation, mac.

Mac: 1:16

Yeah, that was awesome.

Katie: 1:17

And to hear you giggle about the ways that were similar.

Mac: 1:19

Yeah, that was a hoot, I think one thing that stood out to me that I don't think we would have brought to the table like your mom's expertise showed up in the conversation was just naming the physiological and chemical responses to having boundaries and not having boundaries.

Katie: 1:36

I thought that was really, really insightful. Yeah, we're not just talking about healthy relationships here. We're talking about how it shows up in your body and your physical health, and I think for a long time we've wanted to separate those two things, but more and more I think medical research is showing that they are really connected.

Mac: 1:53

Yeah, I think it was a great conversation, so I hope you enjoy this bonus episode on boundaries. Hey everyone.

Katie: 2:13

My name is Katie. And I'm Mac, welcome to Praxis. We're sitting here today with a special guest by the name of Terry Kaushnik. If you're thinking, wait, terry Kaushnik, isn't that your mom? Well, yes, yes, it is my mom, and we're excited to have her here today. We're going to be talking about something that is near and dear to my mom's heart and has been a big part of her life and her professional practice as a therapist for a long time, and that's boundaries. We did an episode on boundaries last time and, mac, you mentioned a book by the title boundaries, by Henry Cloud and John Townsend.

Mac: 2:47

It's a very good resource.

Katie: 2:49

It's a great resource and I remember my mom recommending that book to literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people growing up and just talking about boundaries a lot. This was literally part of the everyday dialogue in our conversation. I made a joke recently that how most kids start by saying mama or dada is their first word. I'm pretty sure my first word was boundaries, because that's how much we talked about it in our home. So in all seriousness, we're excited to have her here today. She's been a marriage and family therapist for about 30 years and has spent most of that time practicing here in O'Connor, wac. I think she's had about 80 to 90% of this town in her office at some point in time. I can't tell you how many times people come up to me and say like, oh my gosh, your mom helped me so much, changed my life, oftentimes with tears in their eyes. So I know she's helped a lot of people with her work and today we're here talking about something that is especially near and dear to her heart.

Mac: 3:42

Welcome Terri.

Terri: 3:43

Thank you, I'm excited to be here.

Mac: 3:45

I'm excited to have you here. You have helped a ton of people and one of the reasons why I'm excited I've been anticipating this conversation for a while, and part of it is just to watch the two of you interact, because you have so many similarities. You two kind of look alike and when you both get amped up, you I don't know if you are aware you do this you both kind of do this like headbomb finger thing that has this rhythm to it.

Katie: 4:09

To like emphasize the points I'm just excited to see that Sometimes it's two fingers, sometimes really being sorry, but if you're really doubling down and becomes two fingers.

Mac: 4:17

You do it as well. I'm just excited to see the two of you interact. You have so many similarities, but you're also very different. So I thought just to kind of like maybe a playful starter here why don't you share some ways? You're very, very different from each other.

Katie: 4:31

I'll let you start with that one.

Terri: 4:33

How we are different is Katie thinks before she speaks. I am pretty impulsive and spontaneous and I will speak just right off the cuff whatever I'm thinking. It could be called verbal processing out loud, and Katie knows I'm highly impulsive and I say whatever I think, without a filter. Where Katie, I really think, is more like Randy, my husband, where she thinks before she speaks. She'll process what she's thinking and then speak.

Mac: 5:08

And then communicate.

Terri: 5:10

And then speak. What she has already filtered is probably appropriate.

Katie: 5:15

Terry doesn't often do that and it gets me in trouble. Would you agree, katie? Sometimes I do that, sometimes I don't think before I speak, but that is a pretty good one.

Mac: 5:24

What would you say?

Katie: 5:27

So I know I am fairly extroverted and do a lot of social activities, but my mom takes that and like times it by 10. So I think, compared to my mom, I'm actually I'm actually I'm actually kind of like maybe kind of an introvert where I need some time at home.

Mac: 5:41

That is crazy to me. Why? Because typically when we check in during the week, I hear what you did over the weekend and it's enough social activity that I would need to take at least 10 naps.

Terri: 5:56

Yeah, and I can see I would say Katie that you probably seem like you're not doing as much compared to maybe what I'm doing, or yeah, you just like to pack every, literally every minute of every day with and it's always with fun. It's always with fun, but that's because I'm a seven on the Instagram. Sevens can never have enough fun, so I'm excited because this feels fun to me right now.

Mac: 6:24

Yeah, this is a fun event. I am having fun, we're having fun.

Katie: 6:26

And I'm achieving, and I'm a three, so we're all we're all good.

Mac: 6:29

We're all good. Well, speaking of achieving, let's and having fun, let's get into it, and then we're going to get into this. You kind of took the wind out of my sails, Katie I know I did. Because I was going to introduce this topic we're going to cover today, and you already did.

Katie: 6:45

But in fairness, I asked your permission.

Mac: 6:47

There we go, so we're we're in this series on emotional maturity and how it's essential to discipleship. If you want to grow as a follower of Jesus, you'll also need to grow your emotional maturity. Last episode, we just introduced this entire topic of of of boundaries, and we covered a lot of stuff. We talked about what boundaries are. A boundary is a space or a limit between you and another person that defines where you and and the other person begins. We talked about a bunch of different kinds of boundaries emotional boundaries, physical boundaries conversational all of that. We talked about what boundaries aren't. There's a lot of myths or confusion what boundaries are? I think the most common one I encounter is that boundaries are selfish, and so we tried to unpack how that's. That's not actually the case, and then we talked about how to discern boundaries, and one of the things we really are committed to in this podcast is is going back to Jesus and seeing how he embodied the things we're talking about, and Jesus did not live a a boundaryless life, and at the end of the episode we just kind of felt like man. There's a lot more we could say about this, and I know this is something that we all have to deal with in our everyday lives. There's lots of boundaries to navigate, and maybe we should go a little bit further, and so today, terry, we invited you on because you basically help people with boundaries it's like your professional skill set and we collaborated on the front end to name five reasons why boundaries are important. So that's what we want to talk about today. Here are five reasons why boundaries are really important in life. So, terry, why don't you kick us off and share Reason number one?

Terri: 8:25

I'd be happy to do that. Thanks, mac. And I did listen to that last podcast on boundaries and I want to say it was excellent and packed a lot of information. So if you haven't listened to the last podcast on boundaries, I really encourage you to listen to that, because it was maybe now when you recommend that book to people, you can sort of pair it with the podcast episode. I will tell them to definitely listen to the podcast. It was excellent and covered a lot of information, so thank you for that.

Mac: 8:57

Thank you.

Terri: 8:57

And today we're going to be talking about boundaries and to encourage boundaries, encourage honesty in relationships, and the first point that I want to talk about is protecting against operating with unspoken assumptions. So this gave me pause to think about what this actually means. It's really about if you're interacting with someone. A lot of people do this, I find in my practice. They have narratives in their head that they believe about boundaries or about a situation and they act as if it's true. So to define assumptions. It's something that we are thinking or creating as a narrative in our minds that we can do two things with One project onto others, what we think they're thinking or what we think they're needing, or the other way assumption can come into. A boundary violation is assuming someone should know what we want or what we think. So those are kind of two different ways that we can have boundary violations through assumptions.

Mac: 10:23

Okay, time out. You've said a lot, okay, so I hear you saying that the first reason is that boundaries encourage honesty in relationships Correct and part of this honesty is being clear about our expectations and perhaps having clarity about other people's expectations, right.

Terri: 10:45

Correct. But how would you do that unless you actually ask and communicate? So we're talking about what I think is two different things. Yeah, assumptions are in our head, right, they're thoughts that we have and we project onto someone. The clarification is verbalizing and asking. Yeah, so a boundary can be considered in asking and recognizing that we actually don't know.

Mac: 11:13

Yeah.

Terri: 11:14

You have to assume a posture of humility and actually recognize there's a thought process going on, or a narrative in your head that you think you know what the other person wants or you think someone should know what you want. So assumptions are narratives in our mind that we project onto others. Do you have an example? Maybe?

Mac: 11:34

that would help you out. Yeah, maybe I think this might help. Terry, you tell me I once had someone you actually know this person, so I'm not going to say their name. They at one point were part of our church community and somehow I have no idea how they got my cell phone and this person began to call me whenever they had a problem or a challenge that they were experiencing in life.

Terri: 12:04

I'm sorry. I thought you were okay when I did that. I do call your. Let Okay, keep going.

Mac: 12:10

I don't think it was you, but somehow this individual. He got my phone and whenever he had a problem, a challenge that he didn't know how to handle on his own, he would reach out to me. And it became very consistent, and not during work hours, so I'd be hanging out with my family at night, bring, bring, bring. It'd be on the weekend, friday nights. I mean, it's just kind of very intrusive and I initially was pretty frustrated, like how come this person doesn't intuit or realize that they're violating my boundaries and intruding on my family time, et cetera, et cetera. At the same time as this person, unaware of the expectations, it seems that he had this conception of a pastor, that this is what a pastor is. They are sort of an on-call counselor whenever I'm experiencing a problem or a challenge. So I felt like there were kind of two things going on. One is what does this person, what expectations does this person have of me wrapped up in my role, and why am I so? Have I communicated my boundaries? In other words, it'd be great if this individual could just intuit those boundaries and knock it off. But perhaps I need to be clear about here's what I can do for you, here's what I can't do for you. Here's when I'm available, here's what I'm not going to be available, et cetera. And so that's what I had to do. I kind of next time there was a moment of course I didn't want to blow them off to make them feel like I don't care about you, but next time I just kind of delayed my response. I waited till work hours. I called and said hey, I saw you reached out, had a conversation. Hey, it seems like you're calling a lot at different times. It seems like I'm noticing these kinds of expectations. What are your expectations of me? I really want to care and support you. However, here's when I can do that.

Terri: 14:01

And that's good.

Mac: 14:03

And if it goes beyond what I can do, you might need something more than I can provide. But here's what I can do and here's when I'm going to be available to you. Does that kind?

Terri: 14:10

of get at it a little bit, and that's a really good example, mack, I think on two levels. One that person was assuming you should be available to them 24-7 because you're the pastor. So the assumption would be pastor should be available at all times, and I'm going to act on that. But one thing when you were speaking is I heard an assumption on your part was people should just know, what the boundaries are. So you have two people interacting with assumptions and you eventually got around to clarifying here are my boundaries. But I could hear in that conversation in your mind how can someone not know they should? know, this is my private time and they should know that. So the assumption can be in the parties interacting and communicating we always project our thought process onto the other person, so he's projecting his onto yours. A pastor should be available 24-7 to me, no matter what's going on, and yours is people should really know this Like I'm not available 24-7. So that takes a conversation to clarify expectations around that.

Mac: 15:20

And.

Terri: 15:20

I was going to share. I was kind of thinking about do I want to share this? But yes, I am going to share this. It's a situation I have going on right now on a personal level of boundaries, that after 40 years of grandma's sissy, my mother-in-law, hosting Christmas, she can no longer do it. So the three sisters one sister and the two sister-in-laws and my mother-in-law I'll have to come to a conclusion of what do we do next. And it's been a nightmare. Okay, right, katie, like a nightmare, because we all operate under assumptions. We're all operating under assumptions and it's caused me to pause and say how are each one of my sisters and my mother-in-law operating under assumptions? Because it's gotten very tangled, right, katie can kind of know the players here and I love everybody. We all get along. So I want to just clarify these are healthy family members, but even in healthy families there are assumptions and boundary violation my mother-in-law loves everybody and just wants to get along and wants everybody to be happy. So she assumes she knows what everybody wants and interjects here's what's going to happen. But it's all based on her assumptions that she knows what's best and she's going to do what's best for everybody. Thank you, grandma CC. We love that about you. My other sister-in-law is quiet and her assumption is I don't really get a voice, I'll just do whatever, and it's really not about me, and I assume that I just really don't have a say. And then my other sister-in-law who I love, who could be listening and it's okay if she is assumes that everybody thinks like her. If I want this, why wouldn't everybody want this? I think it's this way. Why wouldn't everybody want it this way? And so it's a tangled mess. I walked in this morning and Adam is untangling Christmas lights. And he goes. Someone put this away without really thinking and just threw it in the box and now he's untangling. And that's what we're doing right now is we're untangling a mess. But I love that I had a chance to process and realize. It's because we're all operating under assumptions but we're not really good at communicating through speaking about what we're thinking. I tell my mother-in-law I know you think you know what's best, but why don't you ask them If that's what's? best I tell my yeah, just ask what do you want, what works for you? And then the other sister-in-law who thinks she doesn't have a voice. They say well, what do you want? Do you have a right to speak what you think and what you feel? And then my other sister-in-law who thinks everybody thinks the same I go, you know, not everybody really thinks like that. And she said they don't, I go, no. And she has a hard time recognizing differentiation, and differentiation is a word that means understanding people have different thoughts and different feelings than you do, and that everybody blends together. So let's just say we're unraveling the Christmas lights.

Mac: 18:31

Yeah, and going back to your first point, which is that boundaries promote honesty and relationships, that's what we're doing, is we're starting to get, we're moving towards honesty by getting awareness around our assumptions and then learning how to communicate that to one another with respect.

Katie: 18:46

And is it fair to say that it encourages honesty not only with other people, but it encourages you to be honest with yourself, for sure Like I have to imagine, mac, in your scenario. There are some pastors who would think, well, I'm a pastor, I should be available, I should like this, I signed up for this. But then eventually, by the 17th time they answer the phone, they're feeling a little resentful and it probably comes out in how they're talking, but then they're not being honest with themselves and they're not being honest with the person Right, like, if you're not honest, it's going to come out sideways, and so I think it's important to start by being honest with yourself and going this is not okay, and then being able to communicate that to the other person.

Mac: 19:23

Yeah, and I think if you're on the receiving end of, let's say, a boundary trespass, that irritation that you might have toward someone is often an indicator that maybe I haven't communicated what I need to.

Katie: 19:36

Yeah right, that's a good point.

Mac: 19:36

That's it. That's like a catch for me, like a good practice for me is to go if I find myself irritated with someone else because they're demanding something of me or wanting something of me. That's a little like self-awareness check to go. Oh, there may be trespassing on a boundary, but I maybe haven't communicated it. Yeah Right.

Terri: 19:52

It's always about the communication. Yes, but in the assumptions you think you know what's best for somebody and then you act on that. But that's actually a boundary violation If you act on what you think is best but you actually haven't clarified with them what do you think is best. Yeah, and I think it's hard. I was thinking about this that when you're making an assumption, it's because you're thinking something that you believe as truth, and it could be I don't ever write to my opinion or I should do what other people want me to do. It can be over accommodation that my thought process or my belief is. I need to accommodate other people. Yeah, my thoughts don't matter, but I have to accommodate. In your case, Mack, it could have been. I have to accommodate the needs of my parishioner. I have to accommodate anybody that calls. I have to accommodate them, and what they need has a higher priority than what I actually need in my family times. It's an over accommodation.

Katie: 20:52

And look, I might just say I think, especially in church culture I know we've been talking about this for a while so we can wrap it up but especially in church culture, I think we are what's the word? We feel pressure to be, let's say nice, like quote unquote. Nice and I've talked about in past episodes, especially women, I'd say young women were taught that we're supposed to be nice and accommodating and available and all of these things don't offend people. But it's similar to the font response we've talked about in our anxiety episodes. Being nice in this case is actually not being honest, and so if we're being nice but it's not coming from a genuine place, it's not doing anyone any good.

Mac: 21:28

It's almost like a boundary-less life is a dishonest life.

Terri: 21:33

I would agree with that, because you're not being honest about what you think and what you feel and we can talk about that later because you have to be honest with yourself first, right, and being honest with yourself first means you know what you're thinking and you know what you're feeling and you're connected to that. But when you have conflict, like what we're dealing with with the Christmas is light, as that is, that's where everything comes into play, right, and your thinking comes into play, right.

Katie: 22:01

Yeah, good stuff. So, moving on to a second one, I would say boundaries promote alignment with our values. So we did a whole series on values in this podcast for the first series in this podcast, and we talked about defining what's important to us as a church. But we also talked about defining what's important to us individually, and I think it's important to recognize that we all have a limited amount of time, energy, resources, and putting boundaries in place protects what's most important to us. So if my time with my family is important, I'm gonna put a boundary around that time. If I wanna save a certain amount of money, I'm gonna put a boundary around how much I spend on something else. If I'm emotionally taxed, I'm gonna put a boundary on how much emotional energy I can put into someone else who may be having a tough time or needing me. So failure to set boundaries can lead to living out of alignment with our values, because, let's say, for example, I prioritize my family, but if I lack boundaries at work, my time with my family will suffer.

Mac: 22:59

Which is exactly what happened to me with this individual I was referring to before. When he began to reach out at off times, my first inclination was like whoa, this might be an emergency pick up the phone which all of a sudden compromises that other value of being present at home. And of course it took me a few repetitions to go. Oh, this is a pattern, there's an expectation here, and it created this conflict between being an available pastor and being a present husband and father.

Katie: 23:29

Absolutely.

Mac: 23:30

Right, and so knowing those values like I, place a very high value on being present at home clarified that this isn't appropriate over here. And now I need to again surface those expectations, name. Help the other person name their expectations, assumptions, name my own and recalibrate those boundaries.

Katie: 23:51

Yeah, I think my hang up with this one tends to be I tend to think that I have unlimited time, energy and resources, and so growth for me has been realizing there are only 24 hours a day and like I need a lot of sleep, so there goes like a third of those, and so everything that I say yes to when it comes to commitments and events and scheduling is going to take time away from something else. So I have to be intentional about what I'm prioritizing.

Mac: 24:16

And these aren't always external. It's not always someone who's calling you and begging for your attention. A lot of this is internal as well. When you go home from work, can you stop thinking about work and actually be present with your home? You know how often I can tell you it's happened to me where it's like your spouse or your child is saying something and all of a sudden you realize you didn't hear anything they just said, because you're thinking about this other thing from the day, this problem that wasn't resolved, or whatever. When you go on vacation, can you put the laptop away? Can you stop checking email? So there's this whole internal boundaries too, around when I'm done with work, can I actually shut that off in order to be present at home?

Terri: 25:00

I agree with that, mac. I did in my graduate work in counseling. We had a whole class but a big part of the class structure was how to let go of what. As a therapist, I'm hearing things all day long very emotional, very intense and very heavy and no one can carry that. So they would teach us, you have to visualize letting it go on your way home. But I have worked over the years and just when I leave, I leave. I carry nothing home and if I did, I could actually feel it in my body. I can feel the stress in my body and I have to tune in and go. What am I feeling? And if it's stress, I might be carrying something and I have to really identify that and let it go. Because you have a stressful job, I have a stressful job, katie has a stressful job, but the intensity of what I hear I have to mentally and emotionally release.

Mac: 25:57

How do you do that? Okay, let's say, because you're right, you're in a health profession. My wife Josie's in a health profession. She's a nurse. All of us have that. When you're at the end of the day and you've had, let's say, five, 15 clients, and all of it is heavy stuff, how do you let go and leave it at the office so you can go home?

Katie: 26:14

Do you put on the frozen soundtrack?

Terri: 26:15

and blast it at first place. I do listen to music and that does help me. My brain recalibrates pretty quickly, Thank you God. I feel like God's given me a brain that I can shift gears, but I actually do pray. And if there's something heavy on my heart that I heard from a client that is heavy in my spirit. I will release it to God and I pray and I give it to him and I just say, god, you can manage this better than I can and I release it and the prayer actually helps me mentally, physically and emotionally release that to him. I tell my clients to do that, so I need to do that as well.

Mac: 26:53

It's so interesting you say that because when I first started in pastoral ministry about 15 years ago, a dear friend, don Gephart, and I would meet occasionally. He was a veteran when it came to pastoral ministry, and this was something I started to get tripped up on right away, which was how do you leave all of this here and go home? And we unpacked that for a few weeks, I remember, and it was very much similar. You need a buffer at the end of the day, some sort of transition where you're able to sit with the stuff that feels heavy or unresolved and acknowledge you've done your best and you're gonna leave the rest. You have to get to that place where you surrender it and know that God's agency, god's at work even when you're not. This is part of Sabbath. For those who practice Sabbath once a week, it's like no matter what is undone, you stop. You don't stop because it's all done. You stop whether it's done or not, and you learn to surrender all of that into God's hands in a posture of trust.

Terri: 27:53

That's right that's right through prayer and believing that God will take it and help whoever you're praying about in ways that you carrying it can't do anything. There can be a belief that if I carry it internally in my mind and ruminate on it and fixate on it that somehow I'm doing something, I'm not doing anything except causing cortisol to flow through my body. So that's not healthy for me to carry someone else's pain or issues. I have to release that to God and there's a chemical endorphin that happens in the brain that you actually feel calm and peace when you pray and release it to God. So a lot of this is brain chemistry around what happens when you pray and let it go. So keeping it in your body creates cortisol and a lot of chemicals that create anxiety, and releasing it to God there's an endorphin response with dopamine that releases it and gives you peace and calm. Yeah yeah, you are not God, right? Yes, I have to remind myself. Well, I'm not saying that to you, I'm saying we should all remember, but we are not God.

Katie: 29:01

No, she's naming the physiological benefits of surrender.

Mac: 29:04

That's what you're doing.

Terri: 29:05

And that's what I love, is that God gave us in our brain, chemicals to align us with healthy boundaries. There will be boundaries with health chemicals with healthy boundaries and chemicals flowing in our brain with unhealthy boundaries. And what I was gonna talk about, even with the first one, is our boundaries will be manifested in our bodies if they're healthy or not healthy, they'll come out in some ways, right?

Mac: 29:35

Yep, all right, we have. This has been. This is so fun. So, number one five reasons why boundaries are important. Number one boundaries encourage honesty in relationships. Number two the second one, katie you name boundaries promote alignment with our values, which obviously presupposes you know what your values are. And then maybe a third one I would add and we've already kind of been wading into this is that boundaries foster relational reciprocity. So healthy boundaries promote healthy relationships, relationships where both people are giving and receiving, and there's probably not like a perfect balance between those two all the time. We talked a little bit about over and under functioning and sort of a seesaw there. But, man, this feels really important. I'm working with a man in our congregation right now who's really having a hard time with boundaries and particularly with establishing relational reciprocity in friendships, and the reason why he has had no positive examples of boundaries in his life and he has a lot of challenges and struggles. And so what ends up happening it's like the speed bump it just keeps happening again and again is he establishes a friendship and then very quickly that friendship starts to revolve around all the challenges and struggles that he's experiencing in life and it creates this sort of codependency where it's not based on reciprocity anymore, it's not about giving and receiving, it's about one person helping another. And so I've kind of developed this little phrase that I must have heard it somewhere that don't dump on your friends, dump on your therapist, because it creates this imbalance. Right, that's right it does. What else would you say about this? This reciprocity boundaries help promote reciprocity.

Terri: 31:20

Yeah, I think that reciprocity is in and of itself what we're talking about. It doesn't mean that you can never talk to a friend about what you have going on as a good friend.

Mac: 31:33

Of course not.

Terri: 31:34

Or husband is going through cancer, so she's gonna talk to me about the emotionality of that and that's healthy. But if that's all our friendship was, was her telling me all our issues, her problems, and it became unbalanced. There would be a very unhealthy reciprocity of me then being codependent and her being the one who is always taking, and we call that kind of the giver and the taker and that brings in that codependency piece that if you're always dumping on somebody, that's really selfish in your way of thinking that they're there for you but you're actually not thinking how can I be there for them? And that's the unhealthiness.

Katie: 32:14

Yeah, and that's an important caveat, because I think it is really a really important component of relationships to be vulnerable and to lean on your friends for support. But I think it's one thing when both people know what's happening and you can even name it, like I could say hey, friend, I'm going through a really hard time right now. Is it okay if I lean on you more in this time, like, what is your capacity? Look like? I know you have a lot in your plate. Is it okay if I lean more on you right now and give them the freedom to say, yes, absolutely, I'm here for you, or to say, actually, I've got a lot on my plate too, so I might not be the person to walk with you in the season.

Mac: 32:52

Yeah, so you're going back to the value around communication, I mean communication is such an important piece here, where we're asking hey, here's what I need. Is that something you can actually provide for me? And not only can you, but then are you willing to?

Terri: 33:07

And that's a good point, because with this person, my good friend, I'm really busy, as Katie knows. I'm busy, busy, busy. But my friend needs me. So it's my responsibility to carve out time for her. She's not going to be one to catch me just on the run because I don't have a lot of margins, but then I feel it's my responsibility to make time for her and I will call her and say, hey, can we go to lunch? And I will define the time and make sure I'm making time. And she knows that I may not be available 24-7 because I'm not, but she knows I will make time to process what she's going through emotionally. So there's a responsibility on both ends the giver and the receiver. So you wanna be responsible as a friend to make sure you have the availability to give or to ask for what you need. But also that person receiving has to also carve out the time to make sure that they want to be there and are there for giving emotionally what that person is needing. And this all happens kind of unconsciously. It's just like this give and take.

Mac: 34:15

Yep, and so I'm assuming something here. But I'll ask, terry, if you needed something from this friend who's going through a difficult season and you're providing emotional support and being intentional about that. I guess my assumption is, if this is a healthy relationship, if you were going through a difficult time, you could be that relationship might switch a little bit. You could also come to that individual asking for some emotional support or to talk about some of the stuff you're experiencing in life.

Terri: 34:42

Right. Yeah, this friend is really healthy and I can think of times in my life where I was going through something difficult and she was always there for me emotionally. So it's the reciprocity of she was there for me and I'm there for her and we take turns being there for each other. But it's not one-sided and that's really what you're talking about. You can't really have a healthy one-sided relationship because that ends up breeding a lot of resentment. My clients talk about that. They have friends or spouses that are it's very one-sided and that breeds a lot of internal resentment that you start shutting off to that person. Then you emotionally shut off because it feels so one-sided.

Mac: 35:24

Yeah, it feels like there's probably some work to do. I mean for me and maybe our listeners to just do a look at all of their relationships and say, okay, are these based on reciprocity or am I the giver? Am I putting in all the work. Am I the one who's holding this together? You know what I mean.

Terri: 35:41

Well, it's interesting you say that, mac, because there's an author, ross Rosenberg, who actually wrote a book called the Human Magnet Syndrome, and his belief and I believe he's right is there's a continuum of plus starts at zero. You go plus one, two, three, four, five, and then negative one, two, three, four, five, and you're either a giver or a taker, kind of by nature.

Mac: 36:05

Yeah.

Terri: 36:05

And it's okay to go within the realm of the plus one or plus two, negative one, negative two, the negatives being more of the givers, the plus being more of the takers. And if you look at relationships, especially in marriage, there is more of a giver and maybe a taker, but it's within the range of normal and there's reciprocity in it yeah. We'll go into this later, but he'll say the extremes of the plus five, the narcissist and the negative fives are the co-dependence.

Mac: 36:33

Okay.

Terri: 36:34

So we're always talking about a balance, but there usually are. There is maybe more a little bit of a giver in a relationship and a little bit of a taker, and Katie. We probably know, and your mom and dad, who the giver, katie, come on.

Katie: 36:50

Tell me no, I would say you're you both, I think, and you have strengths in different areas.

Mac: 36:53

They're in the healthy range.

Katie: 36:55

They're in the healthy range.

Terri: 36:57

I tell everybody, all my clients, I'm definitely more the taker and I think my husband, randy, is more of a giver in a lot of ways, but it just works well for us, yeah, yeah.

Katie: 37:07

But I mean, when it comes to like scheduling social events or curing, you know, conversations or kind of I don't know, making sure you do like decorate for Christmas, like there's a lot of things that you give to you, just make sure that bills are paid and the lights are on the table, yeah.

Terri: 37:22

And it's fun to recognize. And I would want everybody to kind of think about their own marriage. Am I more the giver or the taker? Who? In my marriage, my spouse is more giving? And like you, like you name, katie, there are different areas, yeah, but Ras Rosenberg says the human magnet syndrome is and we'll get into this codependence are attracted to narcissists and narcissists to codependence, because who else would tolerate that?

Mac: 37:48

For sure, for sure. Well, let's get into it, because that this fourth reason feels really pertinent right now. And so it's boundaries protect us from relational toxicity. So, terry, I mean, fill that in for us. This is a big one. I mean this is a lot.

Terri: 38:10

This is a lot and this is really what I deal with. A lot in my practice is with women. It's primarily women, but it's meant to the toxicity of abuse of relationship. We can say narcissist, but it's more than that and it's bigger than that. The codependency and I looked up the definition of codependency is the psychological condition or relationship in which a person, manifesting often low self-esteem and a strong desire for approval, has an unhealthy attraction to another person and places the needs to that person above their own. And a dysfunctional relationship dynamic where one person assumes the role of the giver, sacrificing their own needs and well-being for the sake of the taker. And that's kind of where we talked about the giver and the taker, but this is on the extreme end of the plus fives and the minus fives. A codependent is somebody who is very vulnerable to being exploited, manipulated and controlled by another person because they don't have a sense of them theirself and they don't have a strong development of ego, so they're easily manipulated and controlled by, I'll say, a narcissist, but anybody who's manipulative and controlling and violating boundaries. So it really is a boundary issue of manipulation and control and the toxicity comes in one person is dominating, controlling and manipulating the other through a lot of different techniques.

Mac: 39:46

That we can talk about. Let's break that down. Okay. What are some of the most common I mean some common techniques that you see people using to manipulate others?

Terri: 40:01

Well, we can talk about a term that's relatively new, but I have found it to be somewhat pervasive with people in primarily narcissists. It's called gaslighting and gasoline is a term that a lot of people have used and they're throwing around. But what it really means is distorting someone's reality and I found an interesting definition, but it's a purposeful mental manipulation of vulnerable individuals by systematically altering their environments so that they identify with a fictitious narrative created by a sociopathic chapter. What that really means is somebody who's extremely unhealthy tries to manipulate the environment by creating a narrative that's false and the person begins to buy into it. That wears down their identity and who they are, because they stop question, they stop believing in themselves and they question their perception of reality.

Mac: 41:07

Yeah, it's a form of emotional manipulation and abuse, where one person attempts to distort the other person's perception of reality.

Terri: 41:16

It's the highest form, I believe is psychological abuse, because you stop knowing what truth is anymore.

Mac: 41:22

Yeah, and one way to spot it this is another acronym that I've seen thrown around there is DARVO. So deny attack, reverse order of victim, oppressor that's like the basic pattern of usually a reality distortion is we deny what's happened, then we attack. There's like a counter attack. I attack the person who's naming things and actually reverse the order, like I reverse the order of victim and oppressor. We're seeing this, unfortunately. I mean, we have people who tune into this podcast that are working at churches and this is happening a lot with like the Me Too, church Too, sort of movements when some sort of abuse or toxicity gets exposed within churches, often involving leadership. We actually see this happening quite a bit. You see, often elder teams or the lead pastor who's being accused of something, doing just that. They gaslight by denying, counter attacking, reversing the order of victim of an oppressor, simply to try to make it all go away, and then a gaslighting oftentimes the victims and entire congregations into buying an alternative narrative that distorts what's true. Right, I've?

Katie: 42:28

abused you, but I'm going to convince you that I'm the victim and you've actually done something wrong.

Mac: 42:33

And they have tons of power and often tons of a platform to do just that.

Terri: 42:39

It's interesting that you name churches, because I can see it happening in churches and it happens individually, of course, in marriages, but I can see it happening in church. It's a form of deception and denial around the reality and not owning what the person is saying. They are being hurt. Or, for women, if I'm encouraging them to say what they need and what they feel in a marriage, and when they do that, they somehow have an intensity or an experience of abuse that they're receiving, it's because every time they state a need, it gets twisted around towards them and all of a sudden they're the problem.

Katie: 43:19

So give us an example of that.

Terri: 43:21

An example would be a client might say to her husband you really hurt me when you didn't do this or you're not responsive to my need, and he'll somehow twist it around and make it well, I don't do that because you're always blank. Okay, so he will use it to form a narrative that her needs are not being met because of something that is deficient in her. She is deficient somehow, and she is the one. If she could only change and be different, he could actually meet her needs. And the sad thing is she actually begins to believe this. If only I were better, if only I was different, if only I couldn't fill in the blank, then he would actually be the husband that I want him to believe.

Mac: 44:10

As if she's the problem rather than the other way around, and she'll own it.

Terri: 44:14

My behavior is preventing my husband from doing what I need him to do. My behavior is deficient.

Mac: 44:21

Let me give an example from the church world, because I've seen this quite a bit In a lot of churches where there's a lead pastor centric model of authority, where the lead pastor is put on this pedestal, operates as a CEO, they get to call the shots, going back to kind of that plus five. They're like positioned to be a plus five right, and what ends up happening is that the entire staff basically becomes that negative four and five revolving around the lead pastor. And they're very sensitive. It's codependent, because their sense of well-being on their staff very much depends upon being on the good side of the lead pastor or proximate to his power or whatever. So if they're in good standing with the lead pastor and have a voice in the decisions and so on, they feel great about themselves. But if they feel sort of disconnected or on the wrong side of the lead pastor, they don't feel okay and so you end up having entire staff sort of revolving around one person and it becomes very unhealthy. And then everybody is very prone to all the manipulation that we're talking about Gaslighting. If someone does speak up, usually the response is to isolate them. They're pushed out of important decisions, they get the silent treatment. There's the right, and sometimes they're just removed from staff entirely if they challenge something right, and all of this is indicative of a toxic work environment.

Terri: 45:46

And I think you speak to a point, mac that the toxicity happens in a marriage, in a church, in a work environment where there's a power, control, someone has the power and someone is submissive and there's this Inbalance, inbalance of power and control. And that's why, as a pastor excuse me it's so important for you to be healthy, because if you're a plus five, narcissistic, unhealthy, it's very easy for you to abuse Not only staff but the congregants and just kind of use your power in a way. And what really is scary to me in the church is it confuses with God. Yes, that people start seeing it as well. They're a pastor, so that's.

Mac: 46:34

Which makes it so much more hurtful.

Terri: 46:36

Yes, because it's supposed to be a spiritual leader that is fused with understanding God's law, truth, guidance, and we just assume there, we are assuming, assuming that a pastor is connected to God and given an anointing of guidance for the congregation, and when you believe that to be true, but then they abuse their power, people get a distortion of God and that's so dangerous because that's one of the most spiritual abuses I see.

Katie: 47:12

Yeah, I think I hear you both saying something else I want to name, which is that in any toxic relationship or dynamic, you have a power imbalance and that one person is, let's say, the abuser and then the other person or group of people if it's a staff or whatever those people tend to be codependent. Is that fair? Like codependency actually makes us more susceptible to emotional manipulation, right, but that we have to name the power dynamics that are at play. Because if it is a marriage where we in some ways have equal power, well then, if I'm the codependent person, it may be my responsibility to recognize where I'm enabling the toxic behavior by being codependent, and it may actually be that I just need to have the confidence to state my boundaries and stick up for myself, and that will be enough, maybe, to shift that dynamic. But if it's a supervisory relationship, or if you're my pastor and I'm a congregant, there's a power dynamic there that may not actually make it safe for me to speak up, or I may experience repercussions for speaking up, and that changes things.

Mac: 48:11

Yep, and here's the thing is most people don't like start in a toxic relationship right off the get-go with their eyes wide open, and even the abuser knows that if they just start by being overtly abusive, that's not gonna work very well. So there's some sophistication here. Oftentimes, a relationship in that plus five, minus five starts with the plus five love bombing the other person and gratifying themselves to the other person. So there's a sense of like, attraction, the sense of like oh, there's chemistry, et cetera. I once was warned about a pastor from another pastor who said this pastor will every time, early on, every time you interact with them, they'll put $20 in your pocket. That's what the relational interaction will feel like. You'll feel like you're getting rich. Every time you interact with them, 20 bucks. Eventually, that's gonna flip, though, and every interaction you have, he'll take back 100.

Terri: 49:10

That's interesting. The other thing, katie, when you were talking, you brought up a good point. In a healthy relationship whether it's a pastor, staff marriage in a healthy relationship, when you bring up a need or have a boundary, the healthy spouse or pastor will be receptive to that encouraging of that. They may not love that, but they will be receptive and not angry. Early on in my practice, I would teach women to have healthy boundaries and stand up, find their voice, find their power, help them verbalize what they need, because they were so repressed and internalized with what they thought and felt. So I would role play and my whole objective as a therapist was getting them to verbalize their boundaries. Well, marriages were blowing up and divorcing like crazy. I bet. And I thought what is going on? These women are getting healthy but they're ending up with an increase in escalation of abuse and ultimately divorce. And what I realized? That my women that were verbalizing boundaries, that were married to narcissists. Narcissists do not handle boundaries. They will not accept when my negative fives are becoming up that scale negative four, negative three, negative two hey, my needs matter, my feelings matter, I'm important. That was not met with applause or acceptance or a change of the partner on their behalf In hearing what they're supposed to need it. It was met with increased manipulation, increased abuse. So what you can name is that the healthier you get if you're with somebody unhealthy, like a narcissist, and it's only going to escalate the dysfunctional dynamic and the abuse will increase and ultimately that's why, unfortunately, a lot of relationships do end in divorce. When the negative fives, codependent, get healthy, or in a case where you might have somebody like a CEO or a head pastor or somebody who's somewhat narcissistic, any kind of person that is healthy is gonna probably not fare well with that. You would have to be codependent to create some kind of peaceful dynamic, because any verbalization of the boundaries not gonna be met with applause, but penalty, oh, big penalty and punishment Punitive. There's actually no working through that or resolution usually.

Katie: 51:44

And maybe it's a good way to test if it is a healthy relationship. If you set a boundary and the person receives it by saying oh, I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know that's probably a healthy relationship, and if it's not, then it's probably not.

Mac: 51:56

Yeah, and of course there's probably some a range of health. I think, what you're saying, terry, is that, hey, if it's met with just escalated abuse, that's not great. But of course there might be moments in a healthy marriage where you're wanting to recalibrate a boundary or a rhythm or a pattern and there might be some tension around that, and that's normal, but there's an openness to talking about it. Hey, I wanna understand, I want it right.

Terri: 52:19

Yeah, right, right. There's always gonna be increased tension in the recalibration of a relationship. There'll all be increased tension. But if it's an escalated of the abuse tactic in manipulation, gaslighting, silent treatment, then we're looking at probably somebody pretty unhealthy. Yes, yes.

Katie: 52:40

So we've been circling around this one for a while, but I wanna name a fifth and final reason my boundaries are important, and that's that they help prevent against burnout and resentment. So I think we've again been alluding to how having boundaries can actually lead us to bring our best selves to relationships and can lead us to help love people better right Cause. When we establish boundaries, we preserve our time and our energy and our resources, we're being honest with people, we establish reciprocity and mutuality, but I think failure to do so can leave us kind of leaving the opposite. So think about this with me for a second. Go back in your mind, maybe to a time in your life when you've been in a relationship that caused you to feel a little emotionally drained, maybe a little resentful, like your example, mac. If the guy kept calling you and you never said anything about it, you may not have realized it at the time, but if you go back to think about that relationship and dissect how you got there, I'm guessing there was some point when you didn't feel totally free to name what you were feeling, what you were wanting, what you didn't want, what you like, et cetera. Maybe the relationship developed some patterns that weren't entirely healthy and became draining, and after doing that for a period of time, it's inevitable that you start to feel burned out.

Mac: 53:48

Yep.

Katie: 53:49

And now tell me, how would that have relationship have looked different to you if you did have the freedom to name exactly how you were feeling?

Mac: 53:58

Yeah, I mean burnout happens because I'm trying to do too much, and then the resentment comes because well, now every demand. I'm sort of loathing that. Mm-hmm right, Right. So I guess I would have felt more free to be honest about hey, here's what I'm experiencing, and I got there eventually and then kind of reset things.

Katie: 54:22

Yeah.

Mac: 54:23

But the healthier the relationship, I think, the sooner you're able to name that.

Katie: 54:27

Right and I think something I've observed is that, going back to the point about assumptions, oftentimes when we assume people know like you shouldn't be calling me this much Like when you assume that but you don't verbalize it. You keep showing up, you keep answering the phone, but what's gonna happen? You're gonna feel resentful against that person, yes, and then you're showing up in an honest, healthy way for that person, which isn't fair to them.

Mac: 54:50

Right.

Katie: 54:51

Because you're showing up and maybe you doing this has been passive aggressive behavior happens, like. I feel like a lot of passive aggressive behavior is based on people thinking not being willing to say what they actually mean, and so they just kind of play mind games or say things with a certain tone of voice, or they might drop little phrases that tell you that they're saying or doing one thing, but they're really thinking something else.

Terri: 55:13

I agree with that. I love and maybe you talked about this in another podcast but let your yes be yes and your no be no, as a biblical kind of way of staying healthy. A lot of women, primarily, will say yes when they actually mean no. And they'll say yes because in their brains the narrative is a good Christian says yes to everything or I should accommodate other people's needs, or I have an expectation for myself that I'm compliant and I'm nice and I'm accommodating, and this doesn't fit with the narrative of who I believe my identity to be. If I say no so it's really the passive, aggressive behavior will come out and I say yes to everything, but I begin to get very resentful and angry. And that resentment and anger will come out sideways, but the unhealthy part could be it'll probably come out within my own body. I'll get depressed, I'll get anxious, I'll get a headache, I will manifest the physical body.

Mac: 56:10

My eye might start twitching my eye might, yes, my eye twitches my eye twitching.

Terri: 56:16

No, no, it's, is it? I'm teasing, no.

Katie: 56:19

So so right. So let's play this out. Let's say, for example, mom, you've had 20 clients today, really heavy, and you it's the last day of the month, so you have to get all your paperwork done, hypothetically speaking. And let's say I call you tonight and say I really don't have time to make dinner and I would love a home cooked meal and I would love some dessert, Like I just am really craving some chocolate chip cookies, but not like the store bought ones Like your chocolate. Your chocolate chip cookies and I'd love to bring my kids and my husband, but you know they're not gonna eat what I wanna eat. Like, okay, we can play this out and and you feel like, okay, well, katie needs this, I should do it. I come over. How are you going to treat me in that scenario? And then how is that going to play out for you?

Terri: 57:02

Okay, so how does it play out when that happens? You know me Well, you would probably do that. No, I actually went cook dinner. No, that would not be me.

Mac: 57:11

First of all, you know me well enough, you're not asking me to do it, go to it, go to it I called the giver and say, hey, she needs dinner.

Terri: 57:20

Could you make it and take it over? But probably you would know that you'd come over and I would be a little short or kind of crabby. But this is an often scenario in my life that I over commit I'm a huge overcomitter to a lot of things, and then I get kind of tense and kind of overwhelmed and kind of resentful, but then I keep going through and plowing through it. But I'll do it with so this is my day. She just described my day.

Katie: 57:48

Okay, to be fair, I actually use that example because I feel like if I did say that, you are someone who would say like oh no, I'm not able to do that, I'm unable to make dinner.

Terri: 57:54

I'm not able to make dinner in a positive way, yeah.

Katie: 57:56

Okay, I use you because I don't see that as a realistic example.

Mac: 58:00

I think this is where I'm having lots of fun observing.

Terri: 58:03

But let me just say you name something that I would see. I would feel really okay saying no to yeah, and that would be dinner, right. But because I am a seven and I love fun, I've actually said, after a really crazy day of podcast, clients, paperwork and several other things, yes to an event with my friends to go see Margot Feasler and go to dinner after a day of like eight hours of grueling.

Mac: 58:26

No, so you've done this.

Terri: 58:27

Okay, so it is happening. So know yourself, it's actually happening in real time. I would say no in a millisecond to making dinner for anybody, because it's not my gift. But if I love fun, which I do, I'll over tax in a way that my boundaries will be worn down because I'll anticipate anything fun being worthwhile, but at the end of the day I'll be exhausted. Margot is pretty fun. Okay, margot is really fun and being with my friends is fun, but how much can you actually realistically do in a day? My hardest thing to say no to and I'm going to ask your audience what's the hardest thing to say no to Know yourself, because the hardest thing I have to say no to is anything I perceive is potentially fun. What would be the hardest thing you'd have to say no to, katie?

Katie: 59:15

Well, I'll think about that. But in your defense, what I was going to say is I've never experienced you to be passive, aggressive, really. So I think Thank you for saying that.

Terri: 59:23

Yeah Well, you're using two things.

Mac: 59:25

Just aggressive.

Katie: 59:26

Yeah, yeah, there may be some stuff to that.

Terri: 59:30

I would say just aggressive.

Katie: 59:31

But I think I hear you saying two things, and that's if we don't set boundaries and we do lots of things that we don't want to do, it'll come out one of two ways, maybe both. One it'll come out sideways in relationships in terms of, like passive, aggressive behavior or whatever. Two it'll come out in your body.

Terri: 59:48

It comes out in my body. It comes out somehow. Yes, right, it will come out somewhere. But what? Do you have a hard time saying no to Katie?

Katie: 59:55

Similar to you, I have a hard time saying no to plans Me too.

Terri: 59:58

Yeah, so much fun. What about you, mack?

Mac: 1:00:00

That's interesting. I have a lot of rhythms and sort of habits. I'm fairly routineized around my priorities so when extra things I have a hard time giving up. Some of those Say no to the things that like are rhythmic in my life. And sometimes that's really good for me to break that and go and pursue the fun, or right to interrupt that.

Katie: 1:00:21

So it's very different than you guys should hang out yeah.

Terri: 1:00:24

So the routine structure of the rhythm of your life is very important. So to break into that, interrupt that, it's kind of hard to deviate out of that it's a sign of health for me when I'm deviating and leaping out for fun Like that's a good sign for me.

Mac: 1:00:42

So I actually have Enneagram 7s in my life that I know will pull me towards health.

Terri: 1:00:50

Okay good. So I guess what we're talking about is what is it hard, what's hard to say no to? For me, fun for you kind of your structure and your rhythm and your routine of life. For you, katie, just plans right, because you probably grew up with me altering anything to just go do it, pulling your into fun things every moment.

Katie: 1:01:08

Every moment Did you? Oh yeah, absolutely Thank you.

Mac: 1:01:12

All right. Well, we've named a ton of things, mainly five reasons why boundaries are important. Quick summary boundaries encourage honesty in relationships. That's number one. Number two boundaries promote alignment with our values. Number three boundaries foster relational reciprocity. Fourth, boundaries protect us from relational toxicity. And then, finally, boundaries prevent burnout and resentment. We end each episode by trying to get really practical and giving our listeners some practices to begin implementation. So why don't we kind of pivot in that direction and share with our audience some ways they can begin practicing implementing and prioritizing boundaries?

Terri: 1:01:57

Okay. So noticing when you are feeling depleted. One thing I do with my clients that I'm gonna share really quick is actually knowing your body, knowing what you're feeling, because how can I have a boundary if I don't know what I'm actually feeling? And I have my clients go through four questions. One is what is bothering me? What's the feeling named the feeling. I'm frustrated, I'm hurt, I'm angry, sad, sad. Why do I feel this Name? Why you're feeling it? Identify what's causing that feeling. And then, lastly, what am I gonna do about it? And what I'm again going to do about it usually is the boundary. Who do I need to say no to? Who do I need to verbalize when I'm thinking or feeling?

Mac: 1:02:44

That is so good. I mean, if you're listening, hit the rewind button at 30, 40 seconds and listen to that list again. It's so helpful.

Terri: 1:02:55

It's so powerful because we can't have boundaries if we don't know what we think and what we feel. I believe that clients, people I work with, I try to help them understand. What am I saying to myself? So what's the narrative in my brain and what's my self talk? I have to accommodate everybody. I have to be a good Christian and say yes to everything. But also, what do I feel? What's going on in my body? If I'm frustrated and angry and I don't know why? I need to tune into that. Ask myself, what am I feeling, why do I feel it and what do I need to do about it. So the boundaries are something that we need to have to protect ourself and to identify our feelings. But then our thoughts are cognitions that in the Bible it says control your thoughts right, Bring every thought captive into the obedience of Christ is know what you're thinking. Could people just automatically operate under their self talk that they're not aware of? So know what you think.

Mac: 1:03:50

Yeah, and I might add to this first one of just noticing when you're feeling depleted. If you struggle with that self-awareness and you have a few other people that you can really trust that aren't gonna shame you or guilt you, if you can let them know. Hey, I'm wanting to really pay attention to when I'm feeling depleted and I don't always have perfect access to that. So if you notice that I start to appear depleted, I give you permission to kind of intervene there and just let me know, hey, you feel a little depleted. I'm noticing you a little tired. What's going on there? Help me with my self-awareness and that can be really. I have a few people in my life who just they're just goers, they just do and do and do, and they're not as in tune with that and I find it's very helpful not judgmentally or hey, are you okay? And it kind of prompts them to do a little bit of that self-reflection.

Terri: 1:04:41

I agree with that. Having people in our life that are tooth tellers is important. What I have my clients do that's really important and really good is to journal. What happens when you journal? When you write, you tap into a deeper part in your brain that connects to the emotional side of your brain, rather than verbalizing and processing. So I say write, write the four questions what's bothering me, what do I feel, why do I feel it and what am I gonna do about it? Writing pulls up so much more than verbally processing. Verbal processing is in the prefrontal cortex, but when you're writing you're tapping into a deeper emotional part of your brain.

Mac: 1:05:17

Oh, that's great.

Terri: 1:05:18

Verbal. Just write it out, Keep it journal.

Katie: 1:05:22

Yeah, maybe another practice would just be to do it, just set a boundary, even if it's a small one, like if you, for example, if you're listening to this and you can think of a relationship or something in your life, that's taking, let's say, more emotional energy than what you wanna give. Try initiating a conversation and just letting the other person kinda know how you're feeling and what you wanna change.

Terri: 1:05:43

That's good. I might wanna give the caveat when you do start practicing boundaries, sometimes it doesn't look pretty Like you can over calibrate and come out aggressively because you're so not used to doing it. It takes practice because it can feel forceful and it can feel like you're over the top with it and also the person receiving it may not know what to do with it. So don't judge your boundary practice with how you feel and how the person is receiving it.

Katie: 1:06:13

And I can imagine it can feel awkward.

Terri: 1:06:15

Awkward.

Katie: 1:06:16

If you're not used to it, awkward.

Mac: 1:06:18

Yeah, so like be kind to yourself.

Terri: 1:06:20

Right.

Mac: 1:06:20

As you're trying to figure this out, be kind to yourself and kind to others. This is hard work, hard work, you know, and when we kind of come down on ourselves or others with judgment and sort of an aggression or an intensity, it can really detract from those small steps towards health.

Terri: 1:06:37

Be very gentle with yourself. This takes a lot of practice and if you've been spent your whole life not having boundaries, it's really hard to start practicing.

Katie: 1:06:48

And I think it's good to acknowledge it is gonna be hard and there probably will be tension in those conversations.

Mac: 1:06:53

For sure.

Katie: 1:06:54

But I think I mentioned this in the last podcast You're kind of front loading the tension by setting boundaries, because lack of setting boundaries leads to tension down the road that we've been talking about for the past hour. So in some ways, just think of it as okay. Well, I'm gonna intentionally front load some of that tension so that I can get clear and save headaches down the road.

Terri: 1:07:11

You're fronting tension. And fronting tension I believe you're saying you're going to be anxious. Yes, fronting tension means you're going to have anxiety about doing something different and verbalizing something you need or feel. If you're not used to, that is gonna create anxiety. Anxiety will initially feel very high, but it'll dissipate and come down the more you do it, so you'll get used to it.

Mac: 1:07:35

Yeah. So practice one notice when you're feeling depleted. There's a little checklist you can use in journal about it and notice what's happening. What am I feeling, why is it there? What am I gonna do about it? This practice two is to do it, set a boundary and communicate it. And then, finally, I would just say a good practice is to learn from someone else. I recently had an email exchange with someone who she is again kind of really working hard on all things boundaries, but, like this other individual doesn't have a lot of great examples, and so one thing I encourage is just to saddle up with someone who you think models it really well for you and begin learning from them and if that's a therapist can be helpful, maybe a friend who's really good at boundaries but learn from the people around you who you see living into this really well, yeah, Right, Very good.

Terri: 1:08:26

Notice the way people do boundaries. Oftentimes people don't have a lot of really good models for that and that's where I often recommend the boundaries by Tonsen and Cloud. It's interesting my clients that don't have good boundaries go. I can barely understand what they're talking about. The concepts are so different that they go. This is a really hard for me.

Mac: 1:08:50

It feels like a foreign language.

Terri: 1:08:51

It's a foreign language.

Katie: 1:08:53

And that's where podcasts and even audiobooks I think can be helpful because you can actually hear what it sounds like to set boundaries Like. I remember listening to a Brené Brown book on audiobook and I loved it because I could hear her narrating, how difficult conversation would sound and I could hear her tone and how she would say things and that gave me like a mental model for what that sounds like Good point and illustrations right Good. Well, you guys, I think that wraps up our conversation today. As a reminder, this was our second episode we spent discussing boundaries, and today we looked at five reasons why boundaries are important. We talked about how they serve an important role in our relationships by protecting what's important to us, and then we set forth three practices that you can use to put this stuff into practice. And this is where the stuff really comes to life. Right Like we can sit here and talk about this all day, but until we actually live into it, these are just kind of abstract concepts that won't really have any bearing on our real lives.

Mac: 1:09:48

It would be like ordering a gourmet meal and then, when it comes, you are busy talking on your phone and you don't eat.

Katie: 1:09:55

Yeah, you gotta practice this stuff, and were you even write a critique on it?

Mac: 1:10:00

Oh sure you study it.

Katie: 1:10:02

But you never actually eat it.

Mac: 1:10:03

Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Next time I'm so pumped for this we're gonna start a new series on church health, and so buckle up. We're gonna have a lot of fun.

Katie: 1:10:14

We'll see you next time. Practice is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.